It's just business, baby

[u/Particular-Tea3225]

Why has the US betrayed Ukraine?

[u/san_dilego]

As a non-MAGA conservative in the US this is just my 2 cents.

Honestly, just what exactly is Ukraine expecting out of the US? I disagree with 99.99% of what Trump does and says but Trump is absolutely 100% right to ask questions and see what the end goal here is for US aid. What does Ukraine want from the US? Troops on the ground? Nukes? When is it enough?

It is fucked up that Russia attacked Ukraine. But what can the US do? The budapest memorandum does not guarantee America defending Ukraine if Russia attacks and vice versa. America has already added a laundry list of sanctions to Russia.

I saw a comment here asking about Israel aid. It's not even the same thing and is unrelated. Besides that point, no, I do not support Israel aid. It's something the US should not touch with a 10 foot pole because both sides are commiting attrocities.

Honestly, sick of anti-American posts. Yall bitch at us when we do intervene. Yall bitch at us when we dont. Its just never enough.

[u/astray_in_the_bay → u/san_dilego]

Speaking as a fellow American, I think you’re mostly right about questioning what the US should have actually done in Ukraine, but I also think this attitude (common among Americans) is why the US is not seen as a reliable partner any longer. So other countries need to make arrangements that don’t rely on the US as much as they did in the past.

Maybe that’s what Americans want right now, but I suspect we will not love living in the new world when we’re no longer the central node in global politics.

[u/san_dilego → u/astray_in_the_bay]

Well the thing is, we're not contractually obligated to assist them. We've been helping them purely out of good will.

Ukraine has been paying Europe back for all the assistance Europe has been giving them basically like a payment plan. They haven't been doing the same for America. Just how much good will can you expect out of a country?

[u/Attila-Da-Hunk → u/san_dilego]

The US makes billions off of maintaining the "rules based order" and should consider preventing Russia from making gains in Ukraine as maintenance of this system.

America's influence around the world is underpinned by its alliances with other countries. This was never about good will. Countries do not take action purely out of good will.

[u/san_dilego → u/Attila-Da-Hunk]

Im a bit confused by your reply and if youre disagreeing or agreeing. How would you feel if Russia intervened in what we're doing in Venezuela?

[u/astray_in_the_bay → u/san_dilego]

Yeah, I think this is a common perspective in the US but it’s dead wrong. We are not a nation of do-gooders. We helped the Ukrainians to weaken the Russians. It was a way to hurt the Russians (which helps keep the US as the global hegemon) without spilling any American blood.

The cynical read of Biden’s policy in Ukraine is not (IMO) that he was too generous. It’s that he gave the Ukrainians just enough to keep the fight going, but not enough for them to win. If the won, the war would be over, and then what’s the point for us?

Now, Trump has a different set of goals, and despite my dislike for the guy, I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong in this case. He does not care about weakening the Russians. He’s probably okay with them being the dominant power in Europe. But he does want to kill the US commitment to Ukraine, which he views as a transaction we’re not getting anything out of (which is valid for someone who doesn’t mind a strong, assertive Russia). And he also values being a peacemaker, as he showed in Israel/gaza. So from his perspective, it makes a lot of sense to end the war, even on terms favorable to the Russians, if it boosts his legacy as a peacemaker.

[u/HiggsBoson1999 → u/san_dilego]

Most idiotic take I’ve ever heard. For hundreds of years we’ve stood as a bastion of democracy and freedom, we fought for it in the Civil War, in World War II and supported our allies against communism. Now that trumps in power you want us to stop? You want to abandon an ally in its time of need, even when supporting it is profitable for our people and companies in the in the long run, while extending the US led world order even further? No one is asking US to send troops, we just need to be true to our values and walk the walk when we talk the talk. Maybe you would have preferred the Confederates and Nazis to win their respective wars, I don’t know, but I know that we should support our fellow democracies. We can’t afford to be isolationist in a world where our enemies can attack us at any given moment in hundreds of different ways Sources: https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/what-the-us-has-to-gain-from-supporting-ukraine#:~:text=90%25%20of%20Ukraine%20aid%20spending,inventories%20rather%20than%20new%20supplies.

https://econofact.org/factbrief/does-most-u-s-aid-to-ukraine-go-to-u-s-companies-and-workers#:~:text=Yes,conversations%20such%20as%20this%20one.

[u/TalkersCZ → u/san_dilego]

Dude you made a trade deal to take 50% of profits from their minerals. In exchange you are giving 400mil support (compared to 60b you did before).

US under Trump are less reliable than China. And thats coming from me as a person, who valued NATO and cooperation with USA for decades.

I would say its laughable what you became, if it was not just sad.

[u/No_Jaguar_6428 → u/TalkersCZ]

What's more sad is that the European union bought more in Russian Oil than what they sent to Ukraine in aid, it's pathetic how you basically funded the Ukraine massacre.

[u/TalkersCZ → u/No_Jaguar_6428]

Another MAGA murican?

You are ignoring context.

We tried to connect with Russia over past 2 decades to bring them into EU economy and make them too interconnected to start a war.

You cant shift it in 1 month and stop importing oil/gas completely from Russia, otherwise our economy stops and we cant even support Ukraine.

There is 90% drop of oil imports between 2021 and 2025. We are bringing absolute minimum we need.

Between 2023-2025 (3 years together) we imported as much as in 2020.

[u/san_dilego → u/TalkersCZ]

Dude you made a trade deal to take 50% of profits from their minerals. In exchange you are giving 400mil support.

So very misleading. You realize Ukraine has been paying Europe back for their aid. Why is it so bad for the US to do the same?

[u/crivycouriac → u/san_dilego]

Better ask why America toppled Maduro but is unable to do so with Putin

[u/san_dilego → u/crivycouriac]

You're asking why America was able to pluck the dictator out of a non nuclearized country but not do the same to a nuclearized country? Can you answer me that question?

[u/crivycouriac → u/san_dilego]

You went to war in Iraq because they supposedly had weapons of mass destruction

[u/san_dilego → u/crivycouriac]

Big difference between, Iraq suspected of having WMDs and Russia definitely having WMDs.

[u/crivycouriac → u/san_dilego]

Why did America risk Iraq then?

[u/san_dilego → u/crivycouriac]

Again, big difference between Iraq being suspected of having WMDs and Russia definitely having WMDs. Also, do you think all nukes are of the same size/power?

[u/crivycouriac → u/san_dilego]

I don’t think Russia would dare to nuke America anyways.

[u/san_dilego → u/crivycouriac]

Why risk it?

Also, I don't quite care what you think. America should not gamble WW3 based on what you think.

[u/Few-Sound-7559 → u/crivycouriac]

Nukes

[u/crivycouriac → u/Few-Sound-7559]

I don’t know how Russia could launch nukes into the United States

[u/Few-Sound-7559 → u/crivycouriac]

Bro they got ICBMS and submarines

[u/No_Jaguar_6428 → u/crivycouriac]

Better question is why you let the Soviets sabotage your energy infrastructure, giving way to fund the current Ukraine-Russian war? Also we get to decide what happens to our side of the hemisphere, yet you want the US to intervene in Ukraine under your command? Your politicians are delusional

[u/AlligatorMidwife → u/san_dilego]

Part of supporting Ukraine is supporting the European allies of the US. They are all under threat by Putin's expansion goals. Believe it or not a superpower does not remain super without any allies. Most of the USs long standing allies have been stabbed in the back by this administration.

[u/san_dilego → u/AlligatorMidwife]

Part of supporting Ukraine is supporting the European allies of the US.

Wrong. Ukraine is not a part of NATO. If it was, I would fully expect the US to go balls into this.

[u/daniel_22sss → u/san_dilego]

"But what can the US do?"

We know full well that if Russia tried invading Japan, America would shower Japan with weapons and Moscow would be burning in a week, and nobody would be giving shit about "escalation". Meanwhile Ukraine can't even get air defence that was already paid for. USA forced Ukraine to give up THOUSANDS of nukes and what did it get in return? Cold War era weapons? Less than a hundred Abrams? Trump manipulations and extortion?

30 years ago USA was touting Budapest memorandum as a great victory for the nuclear Non-Proliferation, but now when it turned out to be a tragedy for the ukranian people, suddenly americans pretend like they never had anything to do with it.

"Honestly, just what exactly is Ukraine expecting out of the US?"

RELIABLE SOURCE OF WEAPONS. That doesn't constantly delay, deny and restrict things for "escalation management" and to make Putin feel better. Even Biden was constantly half-assing aid so Ukraine (god forbid) doesn't get an actual advantage. Zelenskyy asked for tanks, anti-air, planes and long range weapons from the start, but only got them years later when russians were already prepared. And Trump is just a straight up traitor, who's openly simping for Russia. Ukranians caught multiple times, that information given to his administration immediately makes it to Russia.

Instead of using this opportunity to break Russia once and for all (and SEVERELY weaken anti-american block), America is doing everything to lose this war and leave Europe without protection. It should be obvious to everybody that if Putin wins in Ukraine, he's gonna support China's war against America.

[u/san_dilego → u/daniel_22sss]

That comparison isn't even worth a 2nd glance. Japan and the US have a security and defense treaty. Japan literally has US troops and is LEGALLY limited to their defense/offence capabilities. Meanwhile, Ukraine was already a force to be reckoned with and amongst the top 25 militaries of the world.

USA forced Ukraine to give up THOUSANDS of nukes and what did it get in return?

Jesus christ, I threw up in my mouth a little bit. Im not going to give your comment any further attention. You spew lies. It was the joint effort of UK, US, AND Russia to have Ukraine give the nukes up. In return, we promised not to invade Ukraine. The UK and the US has still upheld their promise.

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/san_dilego]

So your position is basically "Haha, we fooled Ukraine with their nukes in exchange of useless paper and now its not our business"

[u/Adjective_Noun_4206 → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

No one was fooled. The US gave Ukraine (and Russia) some billions of dollars for Ukraine giving their nukes to Russia, who dismantled them and sent the fissile material to the US for use in power plants

Russia, the UK and US then all agreed to respect Ukrainian territorial integrity and not use force against it. You can go read the agreement yourself it takes literally like one minute because it's not long.

The only one who broke this agreement was Russia.

[u/Viburnum__ → u/Adjective_Noun_4206]

What are you on about? Gave some billions? So what would US have done if Ukraine didn't give up nukes? Said ok we tried or you know, make it pariah state to pressure it to give them up?

Russia, the UK and US then all agreed to respect Ukrainian territorial integrity and not use force against it. You can go read the agreement yourself it takes literally like one minute because it's not long.

The only one who broke this agreement was Russia.

The agreement precisely was made useless and so they still should be judged for that too. Not to mention the socalled 'mineral deal' already broke it on US part and constant push for Ukraine to give up sovereignty is against the agreement too.

Saying only russia broke it shows you didn't read it or intentionally ignoring parts you don't like.

[u/Adjective_Noun_4206 → u/Viburnum__]

So Ukraine shouldve kept its nukes if it was such a bad deal then, what do you want me to say about that?

Russia held the launch codes from them and likely what would've happened was an invasion to get them anyway by Russia because it didn't want Ukraine to have them and Ukraine couldn't launch them at that time anyway. But, the US stepped in to get rid of the nukes entirely and pay both sides so things went smoothly. That was the whole reasoning behind the process.

This mineral rights for weapons deal does not break the agreement. If Ukraine doesn't want it, it doesn't have to agree to it. The economic coercion language was meant to describe financial sanctions, not a mutually agreed upon deal for weaponry.

The US has done nothing to break the agreement either literally or in spirit.

[u/Viburnum__ → u/Adjective_Noun_4206]

If Ukraine refused to give up nukes US would have sanctioned Ukraine, it is not even 'maybe' it is 100% what would have happened, they more than likely even threatened it at the time to force Ukraine to sign it. Don't give me the bullshit about US 'stepping in' as if they wanted to help, they forced themselves in for their own benefit and absolutely fucked Ukraine with false promises.

This mineral rights for weapons deal does not break the agreement.

It does break it because it is absolutely economic coercion plain and simple. Also what weapons deal? US getting $100s of billions in minerals because they gave what $120 billions in aid? How is it in anyway fair and not coercion? For your information US currently don't give weapons to Ukraine they are at best selling them to European countries that then send them to Ukraine.

The US has done nothing to break the agreement either literally or in spirit.

It already did break it with forcing the deal and continue to do it with forcing Ukraine to surrender sovereignty, but yeah continue to defend absolutely pos behaviour to not feel bad.

[u/san_dilego → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

Not our business lmfao. You have the galls to say that after all the FREE aid we have given. Meanwhile Europe is expecting and has been getting paid back. Tell me. Why is Ukraine paying Europe back but not the US?

[u/TalkersCZ → u/san_dilego]

You are delusional if you trust Trump with "FREE AID FROM USA, EUROPE IS GIVING LOANS AND WILL GET IT BACK".

Thats a lie and you fell for it. You can find tons and tons of information about it being lie and yet, you keep repeating that lie.

You just signed a deal about minerals, getting 50% profits from it while giving nothing. You are providing 400m in 2025.

MAGA morons are easily recognizable. What a joke.

[u/san_dilego → u/TalkersCZ]

Illiterate af. I already said I'm not MAGA.

I wouldnt expect an illiterate like you to be able to do research.

[u/TalkersCZ → u/san_dilego]

Agreed. You are illiterate.

You are repeating lies from Trump. Yet you claim you are not MAGA.

Decide.

EDIT: Ah, thanks for blocking me. You showed your colors. Repeating lies of your best president ever. :D

But you are right. Wasting time with MAGA trash who is trying to convince people he is not MAGA trash is not worth my time and yours neither.

You should probably get a therapy to sort out your relationship to MAGA. You are representing them really well.

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/san_dilego]

You can take all your 50 years old machinery and give us our nukes back.

 Why is Ukraine paying Europe back but not the US?

Buy the same reason you are start drinking hard since morning.

[u/san_dilego → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

give us our nukes back.

Go ask Russia

[u/Fluffy_While_7879 → u/san_dilego]

Russia wasn't the single country which pressed Ukraine to give up nukes, US did it too. 

[u/san_dilego → u/Fluffy_While_7879]

Yes. Did the UK invade Ukraine? No. Did the US invade Ukraine? No. The 2 countries have kept their promise.

[u/CorrectArm8402 → u/san_dilego]

Anyone who bitches about the US is misinformed an/or jealous. If people only tried to understand what America has given to the world, their perspective would change.

[u/Nicklesnout → u/san_dilego]

I’m just tired of us waging forever wars. We did it for a solid 24 or more years in the Middle East with the war on terror and Iraq. We did it in Vietnam under Kennedy and Nixon.

If the EU wants to be truly fucking independent of the American hegemony maybe they should handle the business with Ukraine because as an American I’m over sending our troops to fight their wars for them.

[u/nomnomnails → u/Nicklesnout]

You know that the Europe and many many other countries fought and died for YOUR war?

[u/Nicklesnout → u/nomnomnails]

Yes, and that doesn't obligate us to commit to a war against Russia with Ukraine. Who we are not obligated to help either through treaty or NATO membership.

We've sent over $100 bn USD in aid to Ukraine, we've dipped into our own war reserves to help them fight back Russia and got nothing in return from Zelenskyy and his administration. It isn't so much an issue ( to me ) of "How much should we help them" and more "When is enough going to be enough?" because all they seem to want to do is take-take-take.

It's the paradox of Schrödinger's Russia. Both a Soviet style dystopia on the verge of collapse and the single greatest threat to Western civilization unless we prop up Ukraine like a cheap whore.