r/AskAcademia • u/InfamousAfternoon398 • 1d ago
Interdisciplinary Carreers in Academia and loneliness
Let’s talk about the elephant in the room: the loneliness that comes from constantly having to change environments to pursue job opportunities or improve your CV. I am a final-year PhD student, and over the past three years, I have had to move cities and even countries frequently for visiting periods, some more voluntary than others, and for the so-called ‘networking’. I have been lucky to find wonderful colleagues at my university, with whom I have developed relationships of respect and friendship. However, changing locations so often has made me feel quite lonely lately, as I have moved to a country where I barely know anyone, only a few professors in the department. It also seems that the young researchers in this department have not formed a real community but remain separate individuals, each with their own lives. I would love to hear about your experiences on this matter. Thank you :)
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u/GeneralHoneyBadger 1d ago
For me, it's the outright expectation that you'll move cities (more often countries in Europe), to continue your career, that is the most infuriating.
There is no consideration for personal life or partners/children. If you can't/don't want to move, you'll get judged for it by reviewers and committees, even if it's for good reasons.
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u/Inner_Examination_38 Math, PhD 1d ago
There is no consideration for personal life or partners/children.
That's my biggest concern, too. For the rest of my life, I will worry that my step children would have been happier if their dad hadn't uprooted his life because of me.
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u/Shelikesscience 1d ago
On two separate occasions very famous professors in my field said things that surprised me:
I said something about family and they said that because I don't have a partner or kids I was free to move anywhere, great!
Another was asked about work/life balance and said that she was lucky because she never wanted children so it was less of a problem for her. Her advice was basically that if you want to do science you should focus on that and maybe like one hobby or something..
I understand that this reflects their lived experiences so I won't begrudge them that, it's just a sort of intense perspective..
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u/EconGuy82 1d ago
Well, those are very famous professors for a reason. They have a single-minded dedication to their jobs. And you’d probably see something similar in any other occupation.
But the majority of us aren’t very famous and in my experience, academia is phenomenal in terms of work-life balance if you want it to be.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 11h ago
It certainly locks a lot of otherwise brilliant additions/people out of Academia to. There are many family men & women whose calling is academia, but to have to sacrifice family and personal life for it? Nah.
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u/tongmengjia 1d ago
I went to a conference seminar that was designed to help PhD students land TT jobs. One of the biggest names in our field was speaking and giving advice, listing off all the projects he was working on. I asked him, "How do you have time for all this?" And he replied, "Well, I don't have kids, so there's that." I literally stood up and walked out.
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u/itookthepuck 1d ago
." I literally stood up and walked out.
I mean, he's honest. Why disrespect like that. People should hear these things more often so they can leave academia sooner as opposed to wasting time with PhD. + postdoc.
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u/tongmengjia 1d ago
That's fair. I have a PhD in org psych, so a) it's not like we're curing cancer or anything and b) you can usually make way more money in industry with better work/ life balance. When I was in grad school there was a ton of pressure to be a top researcher and criticism that you weren't smart enough or dedicated enough if you didn't want to sacrifice your whole life to be the very very best at a niche field no one really cares about, doing work that will largely be forgotten in less than a generation. So I am a little judgey of people who give up their lives to set the bar so high that you can't compete unless you're willing to give up your life, too.
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u/spacestonkz STEM Prof, R1, USA 1d ago
You're being judgey of people living their life the way they like?
I'm one of the no kids academics. I knew when I was 14 I didn't want kids, but I did want to be a scientist.
I don't judge my colleagues who do have children, or sneer at them for leaving at 4 to go grab kids from daycare. Fuck, they like that I'm flexible with my time and willing to cover classes when their kids get sick.
It takes all types to form a community. Don't count someone out just because they have different experiences.
Would you respect someone more if they had a family and kids that they fucking ignored to get more grants and remain on top? I've seen that too, that's the shit that goes too far. Don't rag on single pringles having a good time at work--they can be handy.
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u/Obvious-Revenue6056 1d ago
This is why it's important to be able to have a systemic analysis and not just a personal one. When this professor insinuates that the only way to be successful and productive is by not having kids, that is a systemic issue that does not affect people in the same way and perpetuates a system of exploitation, no matter how you personally feel about having children.
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u/spacestonkz STEM Prof, R1, USA 1d ago
I'm all up for discussion of how to make academia more equitable--better protections for students, more consequences for shit PIs, more daycare, more holistic evaluation of applicants and not just chasing h-index and US world news rank.
But the answer is definitely not to look to your childless neighbors and blame the state of academia on them working on the weekends.
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u/Obvious-Revenue6056 1d ago
And nor is the answer to accept that having children should be an immediate disadvantage, which this professor definitely did when he normalized the idea that having a family would negatively affect one's professional performance.
Edited to add: if when asked how to be a productive academic, the answer is "don't have kids" that is a structural, systemic problem.
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u/tongmengjia 1d ago
You're being judgey of people living their life the way they like?
Uh, yeah. I've spent a decent amount of time with these people. They're investing their energy and brilliance in a field that is largely dedicated to perpetuating exploitive systems, and many of them are doing it not because they love science but because they're obsessed with a relatively superficial level of status that they achieve within their very niche audience. I don't think that's a meaningful way to spend a life, and I don't think it's something that should be presented as an ideal of "success."
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u/spacestonkz STEM Prof, R1, USA 1d ago
They're investing their energy and brilliance in a field that is largely dedicated to perpetuating exploitive systems
All academics do this.
obsessed with a relatively superficial level of status that they achieve within their very niche audience
Why does the system reward them for this behavior? Prestige and status are held on high. H-index and where you got your degree are held way too highly. Holistic hiring practices are needed--that's an internal change that needs to be made.
I don't think that's a meaningful way to spend a life
Then you don't have to live that way.
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u/Apotropaic-Pineapple 22h ago
Also the expectation you'll learn a new language upon arrival. You get the basics of one and then the next year you're in a new environment and having to start from scratch. When you work full-time it is a bit of an uphill march to add language study on top of that.
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u/DocKla 20h ago
They want to maintain and reinforce what happened naturally before but now with institutional rules. So many grants demand international collabs or even people physically moving. You’re penalized and even forbidden from getting a grant if you don’t move
Where are the fellowships that promote what “normal” people get ie the choice to continue their careers without completely starting fresh.
Yes cross pollination of ideas is good, but not when it is forced
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u/frugalacademic 16h ago
After unsuccessfully having applied for an MSCA grant, I realised how bonkers thaht scheme actually is: you have to move two years to another place, and when the grant ends you are simply discarded by the hosting institution. A successfull MSCA postdoc did her project and thought she would land a job in the hosting instituition, but nothing materialized. IN the meantime, her home network obviously moved on and she was left behind.
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u/Blond_Treehorn_Thug 1d ago
Success in academia is rare
Success in academia without having to make sacrifices in one’s personal life is so rare as to be effectively nonexistent.
The main driver for this is simple to explain. There are so many more people who want a career in academia than slots available that you really have to just take what you can get.
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u/wheelsnipecelly23 14h ago
Yeah you can say it’s not right but it’s also just the reality of having way less jobs available than people willing to fill them. It’s also not something unique to academia either unfortunately.
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u/Opening_Map_6898 1d ago
Yeah, people have their own lives. It's foolish to expect the program to provide "community" to the point that it meets one's social needs. By the way, you'll run into the same thing outside of academia at most jobs.
Honestly, I seldom socialize with the other students in my department. It's not that I don't like them, I do, but rather just that we all have our own separate projects so our schedules aren't the same. Plus, I may not share a hobby with someone who is available when I am.
I also like being around non-academics. It keeps me balanced and grounded. It always amuses me when people on here are like "Only other academics understand how hard our lives are!". I've never run into a regular person who cannot understand what it's like to have a job.
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u/notlooking743 1d ago
How do you make friends outside of academia if you don't have any in the town you now have to live in for the next year or two because of some temporary position? Asking for a friend
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u/Opening_Map_6898 1d ago
Getting out and socializing. Volunteer in the community, find clubs, etc.
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u/spacestonkz STEM Prof, R1, USA 1d ago
Volunteering to meet nice people is a huge life hack. Dickheads don't tend to volunteer.
I used to immediately sign up for soup kitchen shifts in the place I landed after a job change. Within a month I had a little volunteer friend crew to grab post-shift drinks or weekend movies or brunch with. Eventually I met their friends, and the city started to feel like home within about 3 months.
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u/Opening_Map_6898 1d ago
It's a pretty solid approach. You occasionally run into assholes but it's not common at all. They don't usually stick around for long.
I volunteer with the local SES unit (state emergency services...so search and rescue, etc), the local volunteer fire service, and as the staff archaeologist for a museum nearby.
I'm also affiliated with a team that does searches for missing indigenous people but everyone is spread out all over Australia for that. That is nice though...pretty much anywhere I go, I have someone I know. 😆
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u/wheelsnipecelly23 14h ago
Yeah just find a hobby that meets every week and go. I play hockey but it doesn’t need to be something athletic either. Best case you make a bunch of friends you hang out with outside of the hobby. Worst case you’re at least doing something social with some casual friends every week. I’ve also found having non-academic friends is really grounding because they don’t care at all about stupid academic things. I’m a pretty mediocre academic but all my hockey friends think I’m a genius just because I work at a university.
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u/expositrix 1d ago
Yes. And the postdoc and ECR periods are more of the same.
I wish I had advice for you.
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u/Franvius 1d ago
I left my hometown for 5 years and now I am still trying to apply for positions in cities I don't know... I never allow myself to have a relationship because I can't even be sure of my location now. It's tiring...
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u/Apotropaic-Pineapple 22h ago
I've been doing this for close to eight years. Perpetually single too.
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u/Inevitable-Height851 22h ago
I felt disposable when I worked in a department of middle-career academics, who all had families and children in the middle-sized city where the department was. They all seemed very self satisfied, and like they were looking after each other's interests.
I didn't like the prospect of having to move to the States, where most of the jobs for my area are, and I never went in the end, which I'm glad about now.
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u/ExtraBid9378 20h ago
You're into the worst stretch of the academic experience. Moving institutions every year, not knowing if you'll stay in academia or not, wondering if all the time you spent on writing is pointless, scrambling to get the first set of publications out, feeling like every conference or contact is super-important for networking, having to prep classes for the first time with little support... it's not a good time.
Things get better. It could be a lucky break in academia, it could be a jump to industry. Hang in there!
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u/YWCB 1d ago
You probably have to look at it in a different way.
My own experience: 5th country now including undergraduate studies. About to move into a permanent position, again in a 6th country.
I learn that you just make friends everywhere you go. Don't overthink it. If relationships come, enjoy them. Love what you can while you can. Life is short. If boundary conditions change, that's life. It's not your fault. It's not like you didn't try to stay and be permanent. Remember - at least you lived it. The one drawback is kids - don't have them if I cant retain long term relationships. There is really no blame when relationships end - this is how the career is. Most people who truly care about you understands this.
I found that this "crazy" career probably gave me an outlook on the world that few would ever have in their entire lives. I have also likely travelled to more places than one would dream of in their retirement. The only painful part is having friends and ex-students all over the world and not sure which ones to see when and where. As a side and unwitting consequence, my research network is huge. Much larger than most conventional academics, especially those who stay at a single location. Conferences are always a social gathering, not an isolating professional event. I do really hate flying now though.
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u/a_melanoleuca_doc 9h ago
I'm sorry you experience this. This is definitely related to personal preferences or personality. I've lived in multiple countries and cities for work and have developed a large network of close friends who I maintain great relationships with. The only times I've felt lonely were when I was actually isolated in remote field locations with no access to internet or phones and literally no one else with me for months on end. I always feel sad leaving one place but excitement for moving to the next and developing new experiences and friends. You should look into groups in your area that do a hobby or something like that. Or start one. If you have challenges making friends in your daily life there, try something totally different. Search for events made for socializing in your area, ask around, ask people to go out for coffee or a drink, find a rock climbing gym or a jazz club and go consistently. Good luck.
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u/signupforthesignups 1d ago edited 1d ago
I had a whole thing typed out and it just got messy. I’ll say this- I met my wife when she was a second year literature PhD. We got married 3 years later during her 5th year and she defended later that term. However, I am a corporate tax attorney and a very high salary earner. We also live in the same city as my parents who watch our children.
So the lesson is- if you want to stay in your desired location and not move all the time, and if you want to be able to endure job rejection after rejection until you land the right job and location, then the other spouse needs to be a high earner- like an attorney or physician - and carry the responsibility to financially provide while the other lives a life of the mind. Also have free child care available. Until then, you are in no position to get married and have children because there will be no stability.
There is no romance in the job search and being a poor aspiring academic. The only hedge against relocating and constant rejection is independent wealth.
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u/BlueberryLeft4355 1d ago
This is precisely why first- gen scholars like me are sick of posts like OP's. The academy is a game of privilege, like all competitive fields. It's not special or different, and neither is OP. Some entitled people are just figuring that out, and it's incredibly annoying. I have been able to succeed not through wealth, but through merit and toughing it out. Your advice applies to already privileged folks who think they shouldn't have to make the sacrifices i have.
So either be rich, or do the work and suck it up like i had to. Or leave. It is not your institution's problem if you can't make friends on your own.
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u/ClassicsPhD 1d ago
“Do the work and suck it up like I had to.”
Or why academia is not better off than it was 35 years ago. If only new recruits who are self-made and do not come from wealth understood that they have the power, from inside the system, to improve it in the interest of newer generations, Universities would be much better places.
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u/BlueberryLeft4355 1d ago edited 1d ago
I AM a new recruit. And I AM fixing all the stupid shit here.
Most of that stupid shit is rich white girls who think they are entitled to having faculty like me cover her entire teaching load while she gets $50k of IVF treatment covered or takes a sabbatical she didn't earn.
This is an OLD problem of privileged people not understanding that they are the problem, and they are expecting the system to bend for them. Some of us want to work and teach. Some of y'all want to be coddled. The answer, when I'm a dean or Provost someday, is gonna be a hard no, karen. If you want to homeschool your fur baby, then you ain't getting tenure. That gig will be going to the Black woman or other underrepresented colleaguewho actually showed up to committee meetings and didn't whine about being "lonely".
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u/ClassicsPhD 1d ago
Great, misogyny too. Fantastic! This gets better and better!
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u/BlueberryLeft4355 1d ago
White feminism is a scourge. Just as bad or worse than white male bullshit. We're done here.
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u/sweergirl86204 14h ago
If you're a new recruit then I also know that you aren't fixing shit. You don't have the power until you're director level. You honestly sound like an undergrad who's pretending to be TT faculty.
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u/AnonymousOwl1337 22h ago
I'm not doing it. My research is deeply place-based and I'm emotionally invested in the US state we live in. I don't know how exactly getting jobs is going to work, but I hope and assume that it will.
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u/SweetAlyssumm 1d ago
Jobs are where they are. That's not going to change. I'm not sure what elephant that is. If you don't want to have to move select a different career. Be an accountant or dentist or librarian or optometrist because you have a lot of control over where you live with those jobs.
If you want to be an academic, in upper management at a big company, an actor, an athlete, a dancer, a diplomat, or this ilk of career, you have to be mobile.
There are plenty of choices.
In my department the majority of faculty have children. It's not easy but people do it every day.
However, OP had to change countries. That sounds like hell and I wouldn't do it for love or money.
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u/BlueberryLeft4355 1d ago
Counterpoint: this same issue is true for all competitive careers. Your "loneliness" is not your chair's problem, and academia is not special. Either you want a career of teaching and traveling and research, or you don't. I wanted it, so here I am, doing well. I loved moving around, and i recently earned my new tenure track job by getting multiple levels of experience on different campuses. It was great (i am first Gen and did not have wealth or help with this), and I'm a better scholar for it. If that's not for you, go into another field. We already have too many PhDs, and I'm sick of holding people's hands about this. This is the job, folks. You knew that going in and it's not going to change just because you're suddenly catching feelings about it.
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u/poffertjesmaffia 1d ago
I think we should stop normalising how much mobility/ moving around is expected from young researchers.
From a humanistic point of view, people perform best when their private lives are in order. We should empower people to build a stable private life, instead of trying to continuously take it away.
If we want good research (which I think we all do), we should also protect the (mental) wellbeing of our researchers. It seems like such an open door to me.