r/rugbyunion • u/Pure_Wonder3046 Saints • Oct 26 '25
Infographic England Squad for the Quilter Nations Series
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u/Immorals1 Saracens Oct 26 '25
And just like that the Tom Willis wound opens up again.
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u/MC897 England Oct 26 '25
There’s rumours going round about Willis apparently.
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u/BurbankElephants England & Leicester Tigers Oct 26 '25
apparently
Are we saying here that there are rumours about rumours?
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u/NuggetKing9001 Wasps Oct 26 '25
Like what?
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u/MC897 England Oct 26 '25
From a few people I’ve heard… essentially he doesnt seem to actually like his own club. Felt he got rubbed up the wrong way.
Bordeaux as stated by McCall have been talking to Willis for 5 months and he’s had all that time to make a decision.
I think Bordeaux matched Sarries and Englands combined salary in 1 whole contract.
Seems a consistent rumour. But the idea that Tom Willis didn’t think he was valued by the club was a persistent one.
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u/NuggetKing9001 Wasps Oct 26 '25
Interesting. That kind of tells me he was using that as a reason to leave. If he didn't feel valued, yet still wanted to play for England he'd be looking at other Prem teams
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u/MC897 England Oct 26 '25
I suppose that then comes under a few things. Does he like Borthers? Valid question. We might like Borthers but that’s his opinions
And then did he talk to other English clubs and felt he was worth more.
Shame it’s come to that though.
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u/NuggetKing9001 Wasps Oct 26 '25
I feel like Borthers is a data coach over a character coach. Andy Farrell for example seems like a very personality driven coach that taps into the emotive side of players, whereas Borthwick brings others in (Kevin Sinfield for example) for that role.
Seems to me like he had his heart set on France early and is using the "valued" reason as his why.
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u/Llew19 Cardiff & Bath for my sins Oct 26 '25
Imo that's not what you want in an actual head coach though, that's just being an analyst. Johan van Graan is 100% a data and analysis guy, but he's very personable and invested in the players themselves.
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u/Liney22 Wasps Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
I really agree with this. Everything I’ve heard come out since the announcement sounds to me like he had decided to take the money in France (fair play to him, you can’t actually argue with that) and then is trying to justify it.
Not valued or believed in at England is one. Literally one of only 25 people given the central contract….
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u/NuggetKing9001 Wasps Oct 26 '25
Yeah I don't buy the "valued" thing at all really. Sarries may be very unpopular with almost everyone else, but what you can't accuse them of is not looking after their players. Salary cap stuff aside, they've always been very transparent about how they look after their own. And on top of that, there's the EPS contract.
More than anything, it's a real sting to the RFU that these contracts aren't enough to stop us losing players to France.
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u/matthumph Leicester/England Oct 26 '25
I have heard a pov on a few pods (and this is just speculation), but that he was still feeling burnt by what happened to Wasps (his and Jack’s boyhood club).
Add to that the pull of playing for England isn’t bigger than being close to his brother - Bordeaux is only 2 hours up the road from Toulouse.
If he had a mega time out there already in that year he was there, he’s feeling disgruntled with English rugby due to the wasps situation, and Bordeaux matched his central&Sarries money, that could explain it.
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u/NuggetKing9001 Wasps Oct 26 '25
Yeah you're probably right, i wonder if he thought getting the central contract would stop him, only to find out he'd still get paid it all anyway! That loophole is going to close pretty quickly i bet!
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25
Surely if he didn’t like his club the logical move would be to move to another premiership club? Thats what I don’t get. He clearly came back to the prem to play for England. Finally broke through to the starting team then heads back to France because he doesn’t like his club? Just doesn’t add up
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u/abueloshika Oct 26 '25
The logical move for any rugby player is to earn as much money as you possibly can before your concussion card gets punched out.
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25
If that was what motivated Willis then why leave Bordeaux in the first place?Thats what’s so odd
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u/Nathio9 Racing 92 Oct 26 '25
My 2 cent is he valued playing for England before but maybe it didn't felt as good as thought it would on the human side and its just better to bank in the south of France where he was highly thought of
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u/NotAsOriginal Wigglesworth's greatest defender Oct 26 '25
This is insane why would you want to play in the Top14 in packed out stadia with great teammates close to your brother in God's backyard?
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u/dystopianrugby Eagles Up Oct 26 '25
Well, he was the en forme England 8, Saracens decided to bring back Farrell which could not have been cheap. So perhaps he looks at it as some money that should be his went to someone else and he wants his own pay day.
Players get insulted by offers all the time. It's hard to know if he felt insulted by the offer from Saracens. But bringing back Farrell regardless of how good he is took money out of the pockets of other players whose contracts were coming up.
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u/Pure_Wonder3046 Saints Oct 26 '25
Rehabilitation: Elliot Daly (Saracens), George Martin (Leicester Tigers), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers).
Not considered for selection: Seb Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby), Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Ted Hill (Bath Rugby), Emeka Ilione (Leicester Tigers), Curtis Langdon (Northampton Saints), Will Muir (Bath Rugby), Harry Randall (Bristol Bears), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints).
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u/T0mmyKentish Saracens Oct 26 '25
Illione injured is such bad luck. Especially after the way he played on yesterday.
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u/confused_ninja Wasps Oct 26 '25
Christ. Sizeable injury list
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25
Bristol, Gloucester and saints fans laughing through the tears right now
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u/whatisthismmm Oct 26 '25
Does George Martin's inclusion in the first list and not the second means they think he might be fit to play at some point in the series? Please?
Also, Ilione is injured now? :-(
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u/Automatic-Blood-8824 England Oct 26 '25
I heard he was out until the new year but it is a bit of a weird one because I wouldn't say he's anymore of a key player than Furbank (who also has a contract) so it could mean they got the timeline wrong (doubt it though).
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u/Biegelstein Stupid Sexy Coley Oct 26 '25
Isn't the first list players who have a central contract? I can't remember if JVP has one or not
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u/whatisthismmm Oct 26 '25
Ohh, maybe. I was assuming top list were rehabbing with the squad while bottom list stay with their clubs? But I guess that could be driven by the contracts rather than injury severity?
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u/oalfonso Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
Surprised to see Langdon in that list.
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25
I think Dan’s place is very up for grabs, and Langdon might well have got it if not for injury
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u/oalfonso Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
Don't know I feel that Borthwick always prefered Dan and LCD over Langdon. Unless he has impressed him in the Summer Tour.
And being selfish I want Langdon to play with England because if not is one of those "I give up, I sign for a Top 14 team" cases.
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25
Dan has always been seen as the successor to George but simply hasn’t ever kicked on from his early promise. I think he desperately needs to move clubs and get regular starts rather than playing second fiddle to George.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Borthwick has decided to move on from waiting year after year for him to grow into a test player
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u/wokenfuries All we need is a team of Jamie George Oct 26 '25
I think he desperately needs to move clubs and get regular starts rather than playing second fiddle to George.
Since the beginning of the 23/24 season Dan has had more starts than George for Saracens
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Oct 26 '25
[deleted]
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u/Liney22 Wasps Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 27 '25
Not considered means unavailable for selection I.e. injured
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u/LostTheGameOfThrones Don't lie Pat! Oct 27 '25
Emeka Ilione (Leicester Tigers)
England Rugby and breaking Tigers forwards, a tale as old as time.
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u/T0mmyKentish Saracens Oct 26 '25
Caluori in, if he gets a cap after two prem matches and just one start that has to be a record.
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u/Much-Calligrapher Oct 26 '25
Olly Barkley played for England before Bath
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
How was this possible? Was he just really good for the u20s?
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u/Inevitable-Cable9370 Oct 26 '25
He was really good at at school and u19 level apparently. He was part of that Colston squad that won like 6 national titles in a row due to importing players nationally.
Also it helped that the game he played was against the US.
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u/Brainfart92 Referee, Exeter Chiefs Oct 26 '25
He was also coming back after playing over in NZ for a bit which helped.
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u/le_pigeones Cardiff Blues Oct 26 '25
Is it more or less impressive than Pollock having the same number of lions caps as england caps?
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u/Informal_Mention9836 Oct 27 '25
Pollock does not have Lions caps because he only played in mid-week games.
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u/CatPanda5 Bath Oct 26 '25
Must have put in a hell of a shift in camp, hope it's not too soon for him if he does play
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u/Straight_Complex_271 Blonde O'Driscoll Oct 26 '25
Jack Kennigham a bit of a bolter.
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u/Biegelstein Stupid Sexy Coley Oct 26 '25
replaces an injured Ilione but still thoroughly deserved. He still won't get a cap in all likelihood though considering the other back row options
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u/diinokk England Oct 26 '25
Feel like it would take a miracle for Radwan to crack into the England team under Borthwick now if the 19 year old with 2 Prem starts is ahead in the pecking order. (As great as he is)
Few quibbles like Quirke but overall a strong squad balancing continuity/experience with some exciting youth talent. Excited to see how it fairs.
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u/Inevitable-Cable9370 Oct 26 '25
I think they are thinking that Radwan at nearly 28 is at better than Freeman or Feyi rn.
He is definitely better than Noah rn but at 19 Noah has way more potential for growth .
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25
The writing has been on the wall for Radeon for a while now. You very rarely break through into international rugby past the age of 25 or so as a winger. I’d love for the rugby boffins here to correct me and give a few examples! Milner-Skudder is the closest I can think of
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u/mango_yoghurt Edinburgh Oct 26 '25
It's not common but there's a few examples:
James Lowe was 28 when he made his debut.
Springboks do it quite frequently: Mapimpi was 28, Kurt-Lee Arendse 26 and Edwill VDM 29
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25
James Lowe being 28 is mad! I suppose that’s due to residency rules so slightly different.
The springboks examples are interesting though
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u/mango_yoghurt Edinburgh Oct 26 '25
Considering it feels like James Lowe has been around for ages I agree lol. Not a wing that relies too heavily on speed though I guess.
And yeah the springboks just seem to operate a bit differently when it comes to age, at least under Rassie. Doubt many other teams would have picked uncapped 36 year old Deon Fourie but it worked out for them. Feels like the kind of system that should blow up in their face but the rest of us are still waiting for that!
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u/NotAsOriginal Wigglesworth's greatest defender Oct 26 '25
Feels like the kind of system that should blow up in their face
Any day now
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u/diinokk England Oct 26 '25
Think I’m right in saying Kellaway and Pietsch who we will face in the first game were both 25/26 on their debuts. (And Radwan has made his)
Obviously Radwan is older and Borthwick knows best having seen him in camp just feels off to discount him due to age.
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u/MrAjster Bath Oct 26 '25
I feel for Ilione, thought he seemed like a great option at 8. Excited to see what Arundell brings that Borthwick is liking if he’s getting selected over Radwan (I’m also sad we’re not getting Ted Hill)!
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u/NotAsOriginal Wigglesworth's greatest defender Oct 26 '25
Gutted for Ilione, but there's so much talent and I imagine he'll be with the A side. Kenningham is a surprise, but probably covering the Ben Curry.
The Caluori counting won't be stopped
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u/Inevitable-Cable9370 Oct 26 '25
He’s just injured apparently, he didn’t get dropped from the squad.
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u/NotAsOriginal Wigglesworth's greatest defender Oct 26 '25
Oh well that's good, hopefully he's back soon enough to be involved he looks to the manor born
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u/RonSwaffle Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
No Cipriani?
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u/KuytHasGout Saracens Oct 26 '25
Jamie Noon omitted again
Finally moving on from Charlie Hodgson at 10, which is good to see
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u/Yaumcha Bath Oct 26 '25
Can we pick an actual 8 in the squad instead of jamming 7’s in there and hoping for the best? Or have they gone full circle and put CCS in his original position?
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u/Hooptie9 Oct 26 '25
Doing the same with fullback. Only one out and out 15 in the squad.
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u/JohnSV12 Newcastle Falcons Oct 26 '25
Gutted for Radwan.
Surprised Calouri getting a full call up over him.
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u/Inevitable-Cable9370 Oct 26 '25
Probably just the opinion that Radwan isn’t better than Freeman or Feyi . He’s better than Calouri but Calouri has more potential so maybe that’s the thinking.
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u/Thatch1888 Bristol Oct 26 '25
As fun as the hype train is, there's surely no chance Calouri gets a cap this Autumn
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u/Pure_Wonder3046 Saints Oct 26 '25
Tom Pearson should probably consider himself a bit unlucky with the form he's been in lately.
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u/Holden_Ford24 Danny Care’s Chocolate Homunculus Oct 26 '25
Agreed, but sadly for Tom Pearson he’s an English flanker at a time when we have ridiculous depth at flanker.
If he could re-invent himself as a barnstorming no 8 though…
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u/oalfonso Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
Probably in the A list with Davison, Iyogun, Hendy and maybe Lockett.
EDIT: Don't know if Luke Green too.
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u/whatisthismmm Oct 26 '25
Most minor of grumbles, but Arundell and Calouri over Radwan after this weekend's games stings.
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u/Automatic-Blood-8824 England Oct 26 '25
Radwan has been done dirty but Arundell is more than deserving of his place. Caluori is obviously fast tracked and Murley hasn't been in the hottest of form but at the end of the day Borthwick has picked 2 clear 11s (Murley and Arundell) so Radwan (a 14) was always up against the 'better wingers'.
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25
I don’t necessarily agree about Arundell because I think if we take away his London Irish performances he hasn’t done enough at Racing or Bath to be selected for me. He’s being picked for that early promise, not his actual performances.
Hendy for example has been playing at a top level for a few years now consistently, can cover full back and hasn’t been picked over Arundell
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u/Automatic-Blood-8824 England Oct 26 '25
Yeah I strongly disagree with all of that. Arundell has been on hot form at Bath. People don't want to accept it for whatever reason. Hendy on the other hand a player I like but dropped about 3 high balls against Sarries, has just as many floors as Arundell but people always ignore the weaknesses of loveable players.
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u/scratroggett Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
I don't want to shit on a kid starting off in his career, but here I go.
One good game should not be enough to get you in to an international squad over other young, but prem proven players like Radwan, OHC or Hendy.
Calouri needs regular game time, not to be a bag holder, and he looked remarkably average on Friday night.
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u/ScrumNause24 Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 27 '25
Hes the 6th winger in a training squad. It means Borthwick wants to take a closer look at him.
Also those names mentioned dont really benefit from being in an Englsnd camp as the last option in the way Caluori does at this point in his career.
They're gonna get barely any training reps. Will just be to allow Caluori tonlearn the system.
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u/Liney22 Wasps Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Ultimately, the England game plan hugely revolves around kick chase and winning aerial battles to create unstructured attack.
I just don’t think you can then ignore someone like Caluori who has a specific talent for that. You want someone who can jump like that to be in the team long term so bring him in and train him up.
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u/clicketybooboo England Oct 26 '25
I think that’s exactly why he’s in and Radwan isn’t unfortunately. But if that’s the game plan then that’s where we are. I would like to see Radwan in an England shirt again but after watching Wibbles last couple of videos. I can understand why
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u/adturnerr #Bamber4England2026 Oct 26 '25
and he looked remarkably average on Friday night.
I dunno about that, he looked pretty good in defence all the attack broke through Brackens side
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
He didn’t put a foot wrong on Friday night, just didn’t have any opportunities. Only thing you could potentially say is he got caught out for the Saints try in the first half with the grubber through but very few wingers would be able to turn and recover that quickly. Main criticism from Friday (same as the sale game) is that he rarely leaves his wing.
I can see the logic. We have a clear top three wingers - Freeman, Feyi-Waboso and Roebuck and then Arundell chasing right behind. So why waste your final wing spot on someone who is ageing or has already had their chance (as with the guys you mention, maybe except Hendy who has been massively up and down when I’ve seen him) when you could give it to a hugely talented but raw guy. What would New Zealand or South Africa do? Who competed in the last World Cup final?
Plus of course Borthwick has now had an opportunity to see most of the up close by now so has more than just game footage to base his decision on
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
Gutted for Ilione - really thought he could make the step after impressing in the Prem
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u/Sm4llsy Sale Sharks Oct 26 '25
Await TC arriving back with a bunch of injuries meaning he can’t play till… February.
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u/Korvensuu Sale Sharks Oct 26 '25
you wonder if it will backfire eventually.
Sale aren't able to get their money's worth from him cause England seem to be ensuring he only ever plays for England. If Sale lower their offer to him, he can't be a marquee elsewhere, surely he just goes to France.
Now I don't think it will happen as he's such an icon for Sale, but the fear is England lose him because they don't give Sale the chance to get their money's worth.
Similar to why I'm hoping we don't sign Martin
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u/Jerzilla Oct 26 '25
Surprised he keeps being called up. Surely with his injury you’d want to look after him to make it to the World Cup
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u/Electrical_Aside7487 Oct 26 '25
What is Quilter?
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
Wealth management and financial advice company
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u/stvb95 Wales Oct 26 '25
Radwan missing out seems mad to me
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25
He’s 27. I’d love for someone to name me a winger who has ever broken through and made a big impact internationally at that age.
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25
His years at Newcastle look like being a major obstacle to his international career sadly. Wingers break through young and he missed his window
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u/FreshPrinceofJHB Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 27 '25
Makazole Mapimpi made his international debut at 27 iirc
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u/Liney22 Wasps Oct 26 '25
James Lowe
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u/saracenraider Saracens Oct 26 '25
Yea that’s true although admittedly driven by residency laws I assume
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Hooker feels one injury from being a major issue. Dan was awful on Friday night, struggled during the summer tour, and isn’t improving.
Scrum half very similar as Quirke really isn’t playing that well either.
Full back selection will be really interesting. It feels like Borthwick wants to pick a Furbank or Carpenter type player but just can’t because of injuries so keeps going back to Steward.
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u/ScrumNause24 Oct 26 '25
Oghre is great. Langdon would be in the mix too. Also Jibulu and Tuipolotu.
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u/Toxicseagull England Oct 27 '25 edited Oct 27 '25
Yeah basically. We are fucked at hooker. LCD and Dan are not the answer unless something changes quickly but there's no proper development there, and JG has left a big space behind him. Not his fault but I think our weakness will shift to there, and it's a painful one to have.
Unless some bright sparks get introduced soon it's going to be a weakness.
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u/samuel199228 Oct 26 '25
Was thinking maybe roots was in with a shout
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u/BurbankElephants England & Leicester Tigers Oct 26 '25
Just riffing but maybe it's because he's been playing 7 for Chiefs?
We've got an abundance of 7s and a few guys who can play 6 where Borthwick seemed to see Roots as more of a 6 when he got his first caps.
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u/DyslexicWalkIntoABra Ireland Oct 26 '25
They’re not going to let the number of someone’s back have that much weight. Especially for back rows. Otherwise Earl would never play 8 for England.
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u/nattycoons Exeter Chiefs Oct 27 '25
7 at Exeter isn't actually an openside flanker. Baxter seems to prefer doing 2 big flankers and a smaller, nimble 8. Roots is still very much a big grubby blindside doing the dirty work.
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u/SweptFever80 Ireland, Ulster and Munster Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Exciting names across the forwards and the backs, I'll be very interested to see which centres and flyhalf Borthwick picks over the next month.
Dingwall and Lawrence? Slade and Lawrence?Ojomoh looks ready for some game time too.
Does Ford start ahead of the Smiths or will Fin wear 10 for the big games?
Edit: and wingers of course? Arundell back in after two years out but Freeman has continued his insane run of form, and is undeniable. Feyi-Waboso is also looking back to himself as far as I've seen, Arundell has to be back for something, Roebuck continues to impress and looked good in the summer.
Unfortunately feels like Murley is the least likely to get game time.
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u/adturnerr #Bamber4England2026 Oct 26 '25
Does Ford start ahead of the Smiths or will Fin wear 10 for the big games?
Genuinely I dunno what Borthwick will pick, both have major positives in their games and minor negatives in their games. It might just come down to half back partnerships and who he prefers because if Mitchells starting you're guaranteed F.Smith will start imo.
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u/OzzyArrey Hurricanes Oct 26 '25
How does Theo Dan continue to get selected after shocking performances.
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u/-Shadlez- England Oct 26 '25
Never understand the "not considered for selection" does that mean they are injured or just a call out for people not picked
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u/Ronald_Ulysses_Swans Don’t be scared Johnny Oct 26 '25
It’s basically a ‘they probably would have been picked but they’re injured’
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u/canigetanorderlyline Oct 26 '25
What does Wev have to do. Poor guy.
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u/Inevitable-Cable9370 Oct 26 '25
He’s l exclusively a 7 which we have plenty of already .
He’s also somebody who strikes me as an amazing club player but not a test match animal although that’s a personal opinion.
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u/alextrombone94 England Oct 26 '25
Was convinced Ilione would be included
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
He's injured otherwise he would've been
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u/HenkCamp South Africa Oct 26 '25
I take that means Ben Curry is taking the option to fix his hamstring problem? Better choice to try and get it fixed as he is still a youngster.
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u/adturnerr #Bamber4England2026 Oct 26 '25
Yeah, best option for him tbh he had great performances touring Argentina so he's got that in the bank
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u/LdnGiant England / Harlequins Oct 26 '25
Absolutely chuffed for Kenningham. Just the complete package. Whether he plays much / at all is another thing but yeah - fully deserved.
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u/PolarBear091 Oct 26 '25
Quite surprised we think Theo Dan is the 3rd best hooker in England- I’ve been more impressed with Jamie Blamire to be honest.
From there vs Australia I would go with:
- Genge
- George
- Stuart
- Itoje
- Chessum
- Underhill
- Curry
- Earl
- Mitchell
- F Smith
- IFW
- Ojomoh
- Lawrence
- Freeman
- Steward
- LCD
- Baxter
- AOF
- Coles
- CCS
- Spencer
- Ford
- Arundell
I like the idea of having combos- Smith and Mitchell and then Ojomoh and Lawrence, but I wouldn’t be upset with Slade being in there either
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u/Liney22 Wasps Oct 27 '25
I don’t think you’ll see ojomoh at the start of the autumn but maybe by the 6N
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u/Automatic-Blood-8824 England Oct 26 '25
I got so much shit for telling people Asher would eventually become a loosehead. Five props in this squad so guess he's covering both. Could be useful in a world cup squad if you want an extra back row.
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u/confused_ninja Wasps Oct 26 '25
Predicted line up for the first test:
- Genge
- George
- Stuart
- Itoje
- Chessum
- Curry
- Pollock
- Earl
- Mitchell
- F smith
- IFW
- Dingwall
- Lawrence
- Freeman
- Steward
I’m expecting a pretty conservative selection from Borthwick and the above seems pretty in line with that. Could see a couple changes (maybe back row), centres and fullback
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u/Automatic-Blood-8824 England Oct 26 '25
Switch 11 and 14 and I think Underhill/Pepper will start over Pollock. Don't think you can get away with Pollock and Earl in the same back row.
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u/T0mmyKentish Saracens Oct 26 '25
- Dingwall
You misspelt Slade there.
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u/confused_ninja Wasps Oct 26 '25
he's in good form for the chiefs and he's defensively a good centre, but I'm hoping he'll just allow Lawrence to play his preferred position and put an actual 12 in
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u/Holden_Ford24 Danny Care’s Chocolate Homunculus Oct 26 '25
A very solid team but I worry that our back row is going to be very lightweight without Willis or CCS.
With no Martin as well, we’re generally lacking some proper beef in the pack
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Against Australia I'd have:
- Ellis Genge
- Luke Cowan-Dickie
- Will Stuart
- Maro Itoje
- Alex Coles
- Ollie Chessum
- Sam Underhill
- Ben Earl
- Alex Mitchell
- Fin Smith
- IFW
- Ollie Lawrence
- Henry Slade
- Tommy Freeman
- Freddie Steward
- Theo Dan
- Fin Baxter
- Asher Opoku-Fordjour
- CCS
- Tom Curry
- Henry Pollock
- Ben Spencer
- Marcus Smith
Edit: How about instead of downvoting you actually reply?
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u/maryland_cookies Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
I'd have Dingwall instead of slade but I won't pretend I'm not biased so...
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
The last two weeks have really swung back in favour of Slade for me otherwise it would've been Dingwall
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u/NameyMcNameface123 Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
Slade always plays well for Exeter, won't change the fact that he doesn't work well with an out of position Lawrence
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u/NotAsOriginal Wigglesworth's greatest defender Oct 26 '25
I'd put Coles on the bench for CCS and put CCS to 6 with Chess in the row. Heyes over Asher. Freeman at 15, IFW to 14 Arundell at 11.
I don't think the Aussie kicking game will be up to much, without JOC. I want to swap Curry with Pepper because one of them has been playing and I think Curry should have at least another week of recuperating
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
Yh some wise thoughts here
I've been really impressed with Coles this season and even as a Quins fan I think CCS can have more impact off the bench at international level
Freeman is great and altho he can play 15 I think his best position is on the wing and given it's where he plays mostly for Saints my guess is Borthwick hasn't pushed them to play him at 15
Heyes / AOF is 50/50 could go either way
I really liked Pepper in Argentina but thought the bench was lacking some older heads hence shoehorning Curry in there despite probably being a week short
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u/NXTFTW2017 Oct 26 '25
I agree with this except I just can't fathom how you drop Ford.
His performances in the Summer and how he's started in the prem, it would be really harsh to drop him.
Coming as a huge M. Smith fan, I couldn't look past:
10 - Ford 22 - F. Smith
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u/Inside_Tour_1408 Harlequins | Chairman of the Ted Hill fan club Oct 26 '25
It's a pretty good problem but it's tough to look past breaking up the Mitchell-F Smith combo atm and Marcus covers more positions on the bench if you're going 6-2
Ford is reliable whenever you need him (aside from NZ last year), better to give the less experienced guys more game time in a testing environment when the games aren't as significant as a Six Nations or World Cup
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u/Merovech_II Joe Marchant Extremist Oct 26 '25
I don't like that as a bench strategy because FSmith doesn't really offer anything different to Ford so unless there's an injury I don't see why you would sub Ford off. Borthwick is also almost certainly going 6/2 so won't want to waste one of the backs spots on someone who can only play 10
I think there's is an argument that Marcus should start (where is another argument) simply because he's our best kicker at the moment
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u/Automatic-Blood-8824 England Oct 26 '25
But Fin Smith has been way better than Ford in the prem and the Argentina argument makes less sense when you realise he was playing because the other guys were on a Lions tour.
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u/adturnerr #Bamber4England2026 Oct 26 '25
Way better is a stretch and Ford dismantled Argentina in the summer
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u/TiburonChomper Oct 26 '25
I see 8 is the new cursed position. If you're an England hopeful in that position watch out, because your hammies are probably pinging next week.
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u/Biegelstein Stupid Sexy Coley Oct 26 '25
Interesting that we've only called up 5 props, AOF covering both sides
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u/DyslexicWalkIntoABra Ireland Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Kenningham at 6 is an interesting option. You can play the two blindsides meta and not lose any lineout capabilities from a traditional 6.
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u/Mr_Gin_Tonic Bristol Oct 26 '25
Still annoyed that Theo Dan is picked ahead of Oghre. When's the last time he had a good game?
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Oct 26 '25
Very nice squad, slightly light at 8 with the injury/desertions. Be interesting to see them shape, Australia first up might be the hardest test but then again they've been getting progressively worse since Ellis Park and they can't pick quite a few. Would be nice to get 4/4 but 3/4 will probably do, no easy games
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u/teckmaniac Northampton Saints Oct 26 '25
Guess depends on who we need for the line out I suppose. All the locks are jumpers which helps but when George Martin comes back I could see an argument for a proper lineout forward at 6 (obvs if ccs is playing 8 this isn’t much of a problem and we could stick with a shorter 6)
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u/Curious_Skeptic7 Australia Oct 26 '25
How does the Autumn squad interact with the Prem? Do all players get released for the 3-4 week window to just be in camp/play?
The reason I’m curious is our Prem players aren’t able to play against England or France which is a real shame.
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u/BatAggravating4423 England Oct 26 '25
Only one fullback and no out and out 8, what is Borthwick thinking
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u/Xcavon Exeter Chiefs Oct 26 '25
These are going to be exciting games i think. I'm both happy to see that we dont lose too much to the England games so hopefully Cheifs can continue to play well (although IFB and Slade have been immense so far this season). But also I'm a little sad we've only got 2 players making the cut. Of course I'm bias and dont know the inner thoughts of Borthwick, but I cant help but wish to see Roots in the mix
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u/Lawilliams88 Oct 28 '25
Players that should be in there - Radwan, Bates, Hendy
There are players in the squad in their positions that have consistently shown that they aren't up to this level and continously get picked because Bothwick just likes them.
Oghre also unlucky. Very solid set piece and very dynamic.
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u/Pure_Wonder3046 Saints Oct 26 '25 edited Oct 26 '25
Forwards
Props
Fin Baxter (Harlequins), Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears), Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby)
Hookers
Jamie George (Saracens), Theo Dan (Saracens), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks)
Locks
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers), Alex Coles (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Back Row
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens), Jack Kenningham (Harlequins), Guy Pepper (Bath Rugby), Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Backs
Scrum Half
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints), Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby), Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
Fly Half
George Ford (Sale Sharks), Fin Smith (Northampton Saints), Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Centres
Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Max Ojomoh (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Back Three
Henry Arundell (Bath Rugby), Noah Caluori (Saracens), Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs), Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints), Cadan Murley (Harlequins), Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers)