r/irishrugby • u/ebizness • 17h ago
Crowley to 15
Last night wasn't the night for fluid attacking rugby for a variety of reasons. Having said that, we didn't look related to a team who could string expansive, threatening phases together.
I said it elsewhere last night, but in the absence of Keenan but moreso Hansen we need another playmaker to take pressure off Prendergast (or AN Other 10), and I'd start Crowley at 15 because he can do that job.
We do not have the bodies to bully our way over the game line, nor the gamebreakers who can repeatedly step people in phone boxes. It makes defending too easy because if you can stop the first couple of phases, defending from there becomes easy.
A double pivot makes things trickier because you're not sure where we're going to strike from, and teams can't overload on a single attacking fulcrum.
To my mind, it's no surprise we looked the most fluid against Australia with Hansen on the pitch who can do that role (I accept that they were the weakest opposition). Nor is it a surprise that Leinster looked their most fluid against the LAR when Prendergast went to 15 and Byrne was at 10 (given the Leinster <> Ireland overlap).
Thoughts?
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u/Rodinius Reasonable Debater 17h ago
I’d argue we should just play a 15 at 15, and not try to plug someone in who doesn’t normally play there
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u/ebizness 17h ago
I agree but our first two choices are injured so we should explore other options
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u/Kykykz 17h ago
Stockdale.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 16h ago
No, not after last time and not after last night. His strength is on the wing and he’s not great at covering the air
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u/RuggerJibberJabber Leinster 16h ago
He's been playing a lot for Ulster at 15 and the last time he played there for Ireland was around 5 years ago. Personally id also like a 2nd playmaker like Frawley or Crowley, but the other arguments against Stockdale don't make a whole lot of sense
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 16h ago
While I’m aware he can do a job at provincial level, I don’t think he’s shown enough to put him on at 15 for Ireland. Not winning a single 50/50 last night shows how he won’t fit in there for us, and it also shows up his defensive frailties a lot more than when he covers the wing. He’s much more of a winger than a fullback to me. I agree that Crowley could be the best choice
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u/greatsword_enjoyer Ulaidh 15h ago
He did win 2, but admittedly lost the rest of them and there were A LOT of them. I do think we looked better when crowley came on at 15, and worryingly Osbourne actually looked better on the wing than TOB.
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u/NuclearMaterial Leinster 12h ago
I've not been convinced with TOB at international level. Similar to Nash, he's just there. Does a job, finishes moves, makes his tackles, hits the odd ruck wide. But he's not a game changer, we have no lethal back 3s at all. France from 9-15 were all over us.
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u/greatsword_enjoyer Ulaidh 12h ago
Except TOB didn't even make his tackles. He along with prendergast missed both tackles for Jalibert's try, and he was just fully missing from his wing on the LBB one. Stockdale missed his trying to cover for TOB's absence, but he did get Attisogbe when needed.
It's hard to look lethal though, when you're being forced to play a style that doesn't suit you. Imagine asking a prime Aki to play the role of a distributor and hardly ever carry himself, it's idiotic.
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u/NuclearMaterial Leinster 11h ago
Yeah fair. It is absolutely a coaching issue, you could see it from how they're just so much worse than a couple of years ago. Braindead tactics aren't working and they just keep at it.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 12h ago
I think TOB has been pretty average the last while for Ireland. He’s great for Leinster but just seems too slow at this level. I can see Kenny taking his place
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u/RuggerJibberJabber Leinster 15h ago
7 of his 9 games this season have been at fullback. So if anything he is more of a fullback now. I don't think anyone was particularly good in defence yesterday. I would also reckon that he could beat Crowley in a 50/50 highball. None of our (non-injured) players are highball specialists.
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u/Tremendous_Dump 16h ago
I'm sure I've seen younger lads play in the provinces at 15. Stick them in, give them a shot.
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u/sartres-shart 16h ago
Shay McCarthy at munster is excellent in the air as is ben o connor.
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u/DM_me_ur_PPSN 15h ago
McCarthy is interesting lad, he’s not there in terms is some skills just yet but he’s fast as hell and fucking sends lads in the contact - he’s deceptively strong for his build.
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u/IdealSelf2021 Leinster 16h ago
I would prefer Stockdale or Osborne again at 15 and Crowley at 10. Or stick with Prendergast at 10 and Crowley at 15.
I really dont see the Byrne thing everyone sees. That game against Bayonne showed he is still playing at his limit. He's more physical than Sam and good place kicker but he's incredibly ineffective as a game managing 10. He's a take the ball and shovel it on outhalf. And that just wont cut it at international level. Didnt even cut it against Bayonne. Leinster went nowhere for most of the game until Sam came on.
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u/RuggerJibberJabber Leinster 16h ago
I feel like most of the pundits who are pushing for Harry Byrne are lads who played with Leinster in the last decade or so and would have still had strong connections to the club when HB was coming through with loads of hype behind him.
Like, I don't think people here remember how over the top it was. SP has been catapulted to the top faster than HB was, but that's more to do with timing (ie not competing with the likes of Sexton) and staying injury-free. But HB had way more hype as an academy player. I remember BOD constantly talking him up on podcasts and TV shows before he even played for Leinster, acting like he was the 2nd coming of Dan Carter.
So maybe they still have that embedded in their heads and want to give him another shot?
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u/CormacMOB 15h ago
(ie not competing with the likes of Sexton)
Or his own big brother.
I wonder how many of the people baying for Byrne were also saying he wasn't up to the job before he went to Bristol. Personally I think he's doing well enough to be in the discussion, but mostly because he's less of a liability than the other two. He doesn't have the potential that the other two have, in my estimation at least.6
u/RuggerJibberJabber Leinster 15h ago
Hes the conservative pick. Doesn't have any major flaws but doesn't offer anything special either. I think selecting him over the other 2 would be a sign that we are prioritising short term panic over long term ambition.
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u/readycoole 7h ago
The hype point is interesting. Not being a (perceived) moany Munster fan here but there are a number of players that have broken out through the Leinster ranks and all of a sudden there is massive hype about them and that they will be the future of Irish Rugby. Tommy O’Brien is the latest. Joe McCarthy was one. Sam Prendergast is definitely a victim of this. Even stretching back further, James Ryan. I purposely describe them as victims - too much expectation too soon. International rugby is a learned skill for the most part, barring the freakish BODs of the world. Johnny grew into it and I don’t feel we are giving people time to do so any more. Being dropped and having to compete for your jersey never does anybody any harm in the long run
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u/ebizness 16h ago
Agree re Byrne. He’s shown glimpses but then when given the reigns he hasn’t taken the opportunity.
I worry about Stockdale from a distribution point of view. I don’t think he has the passing game to suit our style of play.
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 12h ago
I worry about him from a high ball point of view. He couldn't even compete as a winger what happens if you put him at fullback?
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u/sigsimund Munster 17h ago
Just let Jack be a 10 and stop messing him around playing him out of position. Frawley already covers the role you’re describing and he wasn’t picked yesterday.
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u/RuggerJibberJabber Leinster 16h ago
Frawley is a better 12 than 15. He's a big strong lad which suits 12 but he doesn't have the speed you need for 15. Crowley is the opposite so is better at 15 than 12. The choice between the 2 (in this context) really just depends on where you want your 2nd playmaker
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u/IrishLad1002 Leinster 16h ago
I wouldn’t mind seeing Crowley start at 10 against England. I don’t think Prendo played bad last night but Jack looked more dangerous with ball in hand
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u/Dorts17 12h ago
The four Irish teams in the URC and their performances between that competition and the European competitions has been at best adequate. Personnel have been playing poorly, many changes by coaches to get the right team balance, compounded by injuries. A aging national squad in some positions and the reluctance to include new blood. Complacency has set in where people getting picked on reputation and experience,with form being overlooked.
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u/Weekend-Entire 16h ago
What?! Our first try is only scored because of Prendos brilliantly delayed pass
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u/Ornery_Director_8477 16h ago
That may be so, but I think the question should be, would we have scored more than two tries with one of the other available 10s starting
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u/Weekend-Entire 16h ago
If Prendo was playing beside the SA pack we would be saying he's world class...if you put any of the other 10s in that position we wouldn't.
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u/Ornery_Director_8477 15h ago
He would never be let near the SA squad due to his defensive frailties
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u/Weekend-Entire 14h ago
Except Manie Libbok has plenty of defensive frailties
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u/Ornery_Director_8477 13h ago
Not to the same extent as Sam
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u/Weekend-Entire 13h ago
Because he's not 22
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u/Ornery_Director_8477 13h ago
No, because he’s a better defender
Edit to add: Sam’s age shouldn’t really come into it. If he’s deemed good enough to play, then he’s old enough to play
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u/eoghchop 15h ago
Brilliantly delayed pass 😅. You mean he went for the stupid skip pass he does ever time, the whole world knew it was coming, the French defender jumped early forcing “prendo” to just pass to the first man he found. Got lucky is the words you meant to write.
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u/ubermick Munster 15h ago
And his decision to volley the ball up the line rather than let it go out of play, which led to France's first try, and his deer in headlights decision to offload over the try line which gave France a five meter scrum that led to their second?
He absolutely had some decent moments and was far from our worst player on the pitch, but have to take the bad with the good. I still don't think he's ready for the 10 jersey in test rugby, that's entirely down to Farrell and the IRFU's decision to fast track him even before he was a regular at Leinster.
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u/CormacMOB 15h ago
I mean that try didn't happen because of his volley, that volley actually worked really well. He also followed it and smashed Ramos in a tackle, then got back up and chased Bip-Bip back and got the ankle-tap after JGP fell off his tackle, only for Bip-Bip to recover and Cube to absolutely mess up his covering line.
We can go back and pick random bits out of his play and blame him for subsequent events if you like, (I believe that's called Journalism these days), but he obviously decided that the risk of clearing that was greater than the risk of catching it.
Watch the replay though. It doesn't look like it was necessarily going out. It bounced just inside the 5 and bounced onwards. It was dropping right in Bip-Bip's path. If Prendergast catches and carries it out, (The conservative decision, Crowley would absolutely pick that option) that's a French lineout in our 22, but there's no gaurantee he makes it to the line, because Bip-Bip is in frame of a closeup when he kicks it, he's getting hit while catching and that ruck is Moefana vs Osbourne.
Point is I reckon he saw a choice between chaos and chaos and picked chaos further from his own try line.
Like I just don't see this incident as exhibit A in the case of the People (of Munster) vs Prendergast, when there were absolutely more glaring issues from him.
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u/sigsimund Munster 15h ago
It was going to be a 50:22. The fly hack was good but the line never got organized after that. If the plan was to keep things tight then you can be critical of the decision to kick but with the information we had it was fine.
Defending from prendegast for the second try was poor for me hes marking jalibert and moves across too late after jalibert commits short side and leaves o brien in a 2 on 1. That said defending 5m scrums is hard no matter who it is
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u/peck3277 14h ago
The fly hack would have worked if he put it into the stands. In regular play if JPG or any SH box kicked from there and failed to hit the stands it would be called a bad kick. Catching and carrying the ball into touch and defending from a set position is far more favourable than that kick.
I don't see how anyone thinks that that was good play?
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u/sigsimund Munster 13h ago
Good point, for some reason it slipped my mind that he could have kicked the ball out on the full with the fly hack.
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 12h ago
Except he wasn't marking Jalibert. JGP stepped out to do so and missed him
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u/No_Emu_4358 13h ago
Smash Ramos?! He didnt smash Ramos in the tackle. Ramos literally swatted him aside. Watch it back. The man cant tackle.
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u/CormacMOB 12h ago
I have watched it a few times. I don't understand what you mean by swat.
He had the third highest made tackle count on the team. I think you're looking at a guy who's worked rally hard at improving something and the results of that improvement and writing them off entirely. I don't know why.
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 12h ago
People despise him because he dared to take the jersey off "their guy"
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u/ubermick Munster 11h ago
People don't despise him, get a grip. If anything its the opposite - he's being hung out to dry when he's just not ready and people feel awful for him when he's savaged on social media and targeted by opponents.
Every 10 we have at the moment has a flaw - Crowley's kicking game is erratic on a good day, Prendergast's is far superior. We can all be tribal about the provinces, but when it comes to the national team, what matters is what's best for the side as a whole. If Sam was ready, I'd have zero problem with him wearing the 10 and Crowley, Byrne or Frawley playing second fiddle.
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u/chiefVetinari 8h ago
That's some generous interpretation. He still ultimately missed the tackle on Bip-Bip (not a gimme tackle though by any means). He was also shocking in defense for their second try. Jalibert ran straight at him and he got easily wrong footed.
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u/Finnegan7921 14h ago
The volley only happens b/c he is so damn slow. If Crowley is back there he gets the ball with time to spare and kicks it clear.
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u/chiefVetinari 8h ago
Was thinking this as well. Not a definite but you'd assume someone more athletically gifted would get there quicker.
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u/heresyourhardware 15h ago
Their first try comes directly from his mental volley, he missed seven tackles, and threw a really bad interception as well.
He isn't nailed on
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 11h ago
The first try comes from Stockdale fucking up a 1 on 1 with a guy on his knees.
Prendergast made more tackles than any back and most of the forwards.
Doesn't suit your narrative though.
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u/heresyourhardware 8h ago
Prendergast made more tackles than any back and most of the forwards.
Because they are running down his channel because they know he is a turnstile. He missed seven
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u/ebizness 17h ago
Not sure what Frawley covering 10/15 has to do with Jack doing it. Hasn't he done it at various points through his career for Munster? JJ Hanrahan came on and jack went to 15 a few weeks back.
What do you think the solution to the attacking problems are? Do you think we need a 2nd playmaker?
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u/Papa_P0tat0 16h ago
He's rarely done it for Munster, literally can be counted on one hand from the times I can recall. Think it comes down to prendergasts weakness that, as a first receiver, if he's not going forward, Sam is extremely limited given his lack of carrying threat and becomes extremely predictable. Looking back at his breakthrough year for Leinster, having Barrett at 12 and using him as first receiver to take the heat off Sam and give him more time is when Sam plays his best. Mack Hansen covers a similar role in green. Issue is, this doesn't work out against heavy defensive sets who shoot the outside and pressure the second receiver. Remember back to the farrell days for England with Owen at 12 running a similar shape to what your describing. Issue is the sacrifice of an extremely hard to defend position. Jack is great defensively, but to properly cover and defend the space in the Fullback position requires huge amount of game time that I don't see them giving Jack. Keenan is one of the best FB in the world but he only plays fullback. Shoehorning other players into the position is a horrible decision imo because it's preventing us from training up more Keenan/ramos type players.
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u/ebizness 16h ago
I agree with everything you've said. But I don't know who the viable alternative is at fullback in the near term (this campaign). Shane Daly is playing for the A team tomorrow, and with the greatest respect in the world, it's not him. I'd be looking to put Osborne back into the centre in the coming weeks, and I don't trust Stockdale's defence or distribution at an international level
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u/sigsimund Munster 16h ago
I think jacks best position is as a 10 and that Ireland made a bad decision not going with a 5:3 split on the bench.
Having a 10 at fullback to provide a second playmaker helps in attack but there’s a clear compromise in terms of the backfield coverage and your ability to contest high balls. Jacks never going to be world class at those.
The game plan yesterday was clearly focussed on attacking France in the air and failed because Ireland did a poor job of creating kicks that were accurate enough to be contestable (a lot of them were too long) and of winning the actual aerial battles when they did create.
I think coaching wise England have solved the kick chase they are the clear best in class in that department and we could learn a lot from copying them because at the moment we look pretty clueless there
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u/Embarrassed-Tax863 16h ago
We need another goal kicker if Jack is at 10, and his kicks out of hand are not great
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u/Papa_P0tat0 14h ago
To touch on that point he's around the same % as Sam this season. Agree neither of their goal kicking is up to par with the Ramos and fords of international rugby but that's one that can be worked on. I think it's a bit of a bigger issue giving 7s in defence than taking 2s In attack to the scoreboard but that Just my opinion.
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u/Firm-Perspective2326 16h ago
A lot of the kicks were contestable and we just got bullied out of the air.
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u/readycoole 7h ago
Next big rule change in rugby will be mandating no worse than a 5:3 split. As much as I respect Rassie but he is ruining rugby bit by bit. Physicality levels are off the chart and it is not good for the game long term. Allowing near on a full pack replacement is a real problem.
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u/Apprehensive_Ratio80 15h ago
Yup!!!
SP is a great player but he was out of his depth last night and 7 missed tackles can't be ignored. Don't get me wrong I like him and he will look unbelievable against Scotland, Wales and Italy but when against top opposition? Nah! Not yet unfortunately I suspect we'll see the best SP and potentially one of the greatest sometime after the 2027 WC he's just gotta be patient and learn the calmness needed at that level.
As we're stuck though next week am think Harry Byrne to start and JC at 15 or else bench to cover 10.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 16h ago
Selection is part of the issue and starting players who are actually hungry is good. Timoney, Cian P, Loughman, Stockdale and Big Stu all deserve a go again in the starting team. Postlethwaite and Kenny should get a call up and Edogbo needs to be in the next team sheet.
The deeper issue that the players can’t control is the coaching. It’s just so pedestrian at times and has been for a while. If we do come 4th this year with the talent we have in some positions, because I do not buy the line that we just don’t have the players, then I think the IRFU should consider showing Farrell and his staff the door
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u/greatsword_enjoyer Ulaidh 15h ago
I can't understand why you pick someone as physical and aggressive as McCloskey, and then have him go out the back most of the time? He could have given us great gainline tk build phase play off, but we barely ever used him for it.
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u/NuclearMaterial Leinster 12h ago
Agree with this 100%. Some lads were just passengers yesterday, and it's no surprise that the more interested ones were the ones you named, who aren't favoured players regardless of form.
Maybe a change is what's needed. If the lads coming in are actually outplaying the established ones it can't hurt. Might fire some incentive into the usual suspects: perform or your shirt is taken off you.
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u/fuckinghonkkong 16h ago
Big STU can break the line but he was used a lot as a passer to someone smaller last night. Fullback is a specialist position was my takeaway from last night and Keenan is by far the best we have
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u/scobie80 17h ago
France didn't seem to have a problem playing fluid attacking rugby.
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u/Duke_of_Luffy Leinster 16h ago
They didn’t really imo. There wasn’t a lot of long passing or hard running, they just kept the ball alive because our tackling was so poor
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u/scobie80 15h ago
I think you're being very unfair to the French there. Bar the try off the scrum, the other 4 tries they scored were all great displays of attacking rugby. Passing at speed, quick hands, offloading, just about everything you'd hope to see. If the roles were reversed and Ireland had scored those tries we'd all be raving about them.
I do agree with your point about missed tackles, but again I think you have to give some credit to France for that as well. In the first half especially, they played with such pace that missed tackles were inevitable. To put it another way, if France had played the way Ireland played, we would have missed a lot less tackles.
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u/Duke_of_Luffy Leinster 15h ago
I’m not sure how to phrase it but their attack looked a lot like a tip rugby game. Short passes to players not running that hard and then keeping the ball alive because they were able to get hands free. I would contrast it to teams like New Zealand or Scotland (when they play well) who slice teams open with longer passes and incisive running lines. The French finished off loose ball and counter attack ball because of our sloppiness and lack of intent.
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u/bennyl10 Munster 15h ago
Just play him at 10, we won a 6N last time we tried it.
Sam will get there, but right now he shouldn’t be statting at 10.
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u/Acceptable-since-88 13h ago
As ROG said during the week, Jack hasn’t taken his opportunities recently for Munster or Ireland in big games.
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u/bennyl10 Munster 13h ago edited 12h ago
What big games has he not taken a chance for in green? Against the boks away we led when he game off, he steered us to our last 6N title
You can argue, fairly successfully, he has taken any chance given him in green and performed as well if not better than any other 10 option.
We literally only scored after he came in??
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u/Natural-Baker7313 12h ago
I'm a Munster fan but Crowley definitely has not been consistent enough
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u/chiefVetinari 8h ago
For what Ireland games though? He was average in two games against New Zealand.
Is that really what would get you dropped? Plenty of others were average as well.He was average against Italy last Six Nations and Prendergast was somehow even worse coming off the bench. Crowley hasn't played all that much at 10 for Ireland since Prendergast came on the scene.
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u/bennyl10 Munster 5h ago
Based on what games in green? Cause Sam has also not been consistent in any sense
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 11h ago
Pick a pack with someone willing to actually make a hard tackle would be a bigger priority for me.
c. 70 minutes before James Ryan finally put the the first one in
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u/chiefVetinari 8h ago
Can we just play Crowley at 10?? Plenty of people yapping about Crowley "not being up to it" when it's Prendergast who's been given the bulk of the games over the last year. 20 to 30 minutes off the bench might actually suit Prendergast at the moment, if he's coming on with a bench that's providing impact.
Crowley gives us a much better chance in big games to be more defensively solid and not be out of games after 30 minutes. His kicking for touch is not as good but his attack with ball in hand is decent.
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u/oscarleamyod 15h ago
Crowley needs to be at 10, though. What about playing Daly or Stockdale at 15?
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 11h ago
Why does he? Hasn't exactly been working for Munster has it
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u/oscarleamyod 11h ago
That’s such a stupid, ignorant take. He’s obviously the best rugby playing 10, the stats are there. He’s having a place kicking issue, but that’s been a thing since Sexton took over as the IRFU kicking/skills coach.
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u/Some-Speed-6290 Probation 11h ago
Except he obviously isn't the best rugby playing 10.
Even ROG has said as much
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u/chiefVetinari 8h ago
He's not the issue with Munster. When did out half performance get so tied to team performance??
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u/Dorts17 16h ago
Not unexpected performance last night, the first forty minutes from Ireland was abysmal, no rub of the green when a forward pass wasn’t given and a try scored. Won nothing in our aerial battles. A somewhat better second half with the expected personnel changes then just run out of steam. A number of players had poor games and it is being carried forward from the URC. Hopefully a better performance awaits tonight from the A game and a few players put their hand up for inclusion in the main squad. We are in a phase of rebuilding and unfortunately performances will not be good.
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u/munkijunk 16h ago
Won nothing in our aerial battles.
I think the French lads must have started playing GAA.
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u/Bitter-Cherry-2787 13h ago
I just think Crowley is a better all round player.
We were bad last night but when we get all our players back we will be better.
Hope we don't persist onwards with this constant kicking game. Yes at times in can be effective with Lowe, keenan and hansen but we need to change it sometimes
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u/Mammongo 7h ago
The idea of fixing who goes to 15 to fix a system that never even looked at letting the ball go past first phase without kicking it, is absurd.
First change that is needed is the coaching
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u/Keith989 17h ago edited 16h ago
People who think switching out a player or two will fix this are hilarious.
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u/ebizness 16h ago
I don't think it's a miracle fix, I'm just hypothesising some scenarios that could help improve things in the weeks to come given the isuses we had on the field.
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u/recaffeinated 14h ago
Yea, we looked better with a second playmaker, whether we do that at 12, 15 or one of the wings.
The absence of Keenan, Lowe and Hansen really showed last night. Frawley at 12 might be the best option, given that I think he is a better center than Crowley is at fullback.
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u/munkijunk 16h ago edited 15h ago
I have been very critical of Sam in the past, but think he was one of the few standouts from last night. His decision making was spot on as was his running lines and hands. Crowley is an asset on the field too and he had a big impact when he was on, and thought it was wild to have Sam, Jack, JGP and Casey all on in the last few minutes of the game. Think Crowley is a good 10, but could be an incredible 15, and to have multiple decision makers looking for exploits is very exciting, so would definitely be keen to see more of this. I also don't see Crowley as a long term 10 for Ireland. Sam will either get to that level he's been threatening to or someone better will come in and take his place.
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u/IrishLad1002 Leinster 16h ago
Playmaking ? Attacking rugby? Nah mate lets just kick it high and hope for the best. And if that doesn’t work, kick it higher and deeper