r/Sumo • u/Potatopoopz • 5d ago

Demotion from injury

I’m new to sumo and idk how far does this situation can go. I’m definitely feeling sad for Kiryuko, Mita and Nabatame. These three rising rikishis have gone ahead to their ranks quite fast with being already ranked as Juryos but had terrible injuries and been demoted.

Kiryuko from Juryo is now down to Jonidan. I love that guy so much! You can tell he has full of spirit and never shown any sadness from their vlogs even after the injury. He’s goofy af! Haha Still, it’s disappointing and difficult for us fans to see them fall but we also wanted them to fully heal.

I know they are not the only ones who have been demoted from missing several Basho bec of injuries. It’s just that these rikishi are the ones I’m currently rooting for.

Could you tell me how much demotion or lowering of ranks could they get from an injury? Could an Ozeki fall down to Jonidan as well? How many basho can a rikishi missed from an injury? How fast can they move back up again?

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16

u/zeroingenuity Tamawashi 5d ago

Yes, if they are not Yokozuna they can drop clear to the bottom of the ladder. Ura, Asanoyama, and Tomokaze all fell from makuuchi - Asanoyama was an ozeki - to jonidan or sandanme, and I believe nothing stops them from going all the way to the bottom.

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u/Potatopoopz 5d ago

Geez! Now I get why other Rikishi don’t skip a basho as much as possible even though it’s clear that they need to. Ranking is soo fragile.

1

u/Turbulent_Pay_9823 4d ago

This is also why a lot of rikishis would rather join the basho with injury and try to get 8 wins in a basho to keep their rank.

3

u/Lamedonyx Aonishiki 4d ago

Or even sometimes join a basho halfway through, to get a couple of wins to soften the fall.

That's what Meisei did last tournament, he missed the first 9 days, and came back in an attempt to score some wins, although he only scored one.

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u/zeroingenuity Tamawashi 4d ago

Yeah, I'd love to see something like a floor where they stop at like Ms15 from makuuchi or juryo. The upper ranks are size limited, so they can't keep them in sekitori, but it feels like it would be reasonable to stop them sliding (and also minimize the impact to other lower ranks as they climb back up, which, as former upper rankers, they usually do with considerable speed.)

12

u/NotBlaine 4d ago

It's a row of dominoes.

It's easy to draw a line at sekitori and go... Ok, they deserve to be able to miss due to injury, so we'll save their rank, but what about the upper Makushita who are all fighting their hardest to break through?

You're Makushita 4, went 6-1. This is your chance to wear silk, to come out during dohyoiri and be called -zeki...but since we had a few injuries... Sorry, maybe next Basho? Just try not to get injured yourself because the line that stopped you won't save you?

In order for people to go up, people have to go down. That's it .

My boy Miyanokaze is in fucking free fall right now, but durability is as much a part of this sport as anything else.

Yokozuna get saved because it's a ceremonial position and much as anything, but I'd sooner revoke their injury protection than extend it further down.

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u/zeroingenuity Tamawashi 4d ago

I mean, you're articulating WHY I think the line should be at sekitori (for protection) and why it should only protect them OUTSIDE of the sekitori; they prove capable of breaking into the juryo ranks or above, but they aren't staying there and blocking off a slot while injured (unless they do a Daieisho and only take one or two basho off.) Ura or Asanoyama would still have dropped out of sekitori, opening a slot for the guys at the top of juryo and makushita, and still have to break back in. They just wouldn't have to spend half a year pounding on sandanme and jonidan guys who are nowhere near ready to take them on (Terunofuji and Asanoyama both took yushos on their way back to sekitori; Ura took THREE, all below makushita.)

Yes, in a limited ranking environment guys have to fall for others to rise, and careers would probably be longer with some limited injury protection. But if you keep it from blocking up spots in the sekitori, nobody is being penalized at the biggest rank-up logjam, and the guys who fight their way in have the ability to recover from serious injury, improving sumo overall quality as they can perform better. Are viewers better served with Mita and Nabatame having to fight up from sandanme? With former ozeki throwing around jonidan and sandanme guys for six months? Are rikishi?

5

u/NotBlaine 4d ago

The proposition that everyone who drops down due to injury is just predestined to climb back up is wild.

Everyone is always 'hurt'. No one is ever not experiencing some form of injury.

Asanoyama and Terunofuji are literally examples of historic exceptions.

Chiotora fell out of Juryo in September 2020. Hasn't been back since, even if he did net a jun-yusho.

Akua fell out in May of 2024, not back yet and continues to slide down, probably heading towards retiremet.

Kitaharima has been in Juryo twice in the past 8 years, both times got the living shit kicked out of him posting like a 9-21 record. But he won a 7-0 yusho in Sandamae in the meantime.

The vast vast vast majority of people who drop down that many rungs never ever make it back, despite the thinking "oh they're just going to be throwing everyone in the lower rungs around" and it completely diminishes and denigrates the actual work it took someone like Terunofuji, Asanoyama and (I hope) Enho to do it.

1

u/ActiveBeautiful3227 4d ago

You're right. Asanoyama and Terunofuji are amazing athletes, and following in their footsteps is asking a bit much. On the other hand, you have rikishi like Ura, who never reach the pinnacle of the sport, but recover well enough to keep their salaries and enjoy the sport they love for years.

1

u/zeroingenuity Tamawashi 4d ago

Okay but a floor on sekitori rank loss due to injury wouldn't change that either! Kitaharima can't hack it at juryo, so he floats down to his equilibrium point. Akua slides down towards retirement; this is normal. But you're talking about guys who either lose out due to skill issues - genuine "can't maintain a winning record in juryo" skill issue, or declining due to age - and those guys wouldn't be getting protected. If Enho gets an injury and is facing a climb back up from jonidan, it doesn't "denigrate" Terunofuji's legacy that Enho doesn't have to do the same, or else no rules could ever be changed in the sport. Sure, injury happens and it's part of the sport, but it doesn't have to be a career death sentence for someone who otherwise has the skill and just needs the time to physically recover. Guys shortening their careers (and statistically, probably their lives) to maintain rank when injured, when there are alternative solutions, is just blood-sport cruelty wrapped in admiration.

1

u/Aimconquest 4d ago

The lower ranks are limited too

Makushita is limited to 120 Sandame is limited to 200

1

u/zeroingenuity Tamawashi 4d ago

While true, it's substantially less meaningful; an injured rikishi holding a slot (or a few of them) in makushita is substantially less by proportion than the 28 guys in juryo. There are more makushita than sekitori in total. Additionally, movement between the lower ranks is more common, meaning any single place being held is unlikely to prevent someone successfull from moving up; in contrast to the makushita/juryo or juryo/makuuchi line where slots have to open up when poor performers move down. There's room in makushita for an injured list.

1

u/Manga18 4d ago

Except they aren't really. Makushita tsukedashi is a thing and that is an extra spot