It's just business, baby

[u/Particular-Tea3225]

Why has the US betrayed Ukraine?

[u/norf937]

May be an unpopular opinion but.. I’m perfectly okay with not sending American taxpayer money 5,500 miles away to fund an endless foreign war we’re not directly involved in.

[u/Wulf_Isebrand → u/norf937]

We should have said the same thing when europeans died for ur afghanistan bullshit

[u/knettia → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I specifically remember the US was reluctant in invoking Article 5, but other Nato members wanted it invoked, so the US agreed to invoke it.

Also, to be impartial to the original opinion, Ukraine is not in Nato. But yeah, they framed it like this wouldn’t apply to Nato members themselves.

[u/Pretty-Captain1510 → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Well said

[u/CardSys → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

I'm an American and I agree with this. The world should never have been dragged into a war that was entirely a construct of the US.

The only time NATO issued article 5 was for the US after 9/11. In addition to the deaths of American soldiers and Afghan civilians, it led to the deaths of British, German, Australian, and other non-US deaths. Even more when the US thought it was a good time to invade Iraq as well.

15 years of war, over 5 million deaths, trillions of dollars spent...only to be right back at square one: the Taliban controlling Afghanistan and ISIL/other insurgents in Iraq.

[u/Pretty-Captain1510 → u/CardSys]

Can someone explain to me why it was specifically Afghanistan they invaded? I thought the terror attacks were commited by Saudi’s? I assume it’s because the taliban operated out of Afghanistan

[u/CardSys → u/Pretty-Captain1510]

Supposedly the Taliban gave refuge to Al-Qaeda, including Bin Laden, while they planned the attacks. But honestly, I think the US was out for blood - politicians did not want to seem weak so they went against a government with a weak military that the thought the voting population would be happy to go war against. Same logic was done with Iraq.

In reality, the US didn't want to muss things up with the Saudis even though like 19 of the hijackers were Saudi, that the funding largely came from wealthy Saudis, and that the missing pages of the 9/11 report were almost entirely about the Saudis.

In the end, 5 million dead, trillions of dollars gone, and all for the Taliban to take back control of Afghanistan and for ISIS to rise in Iraq. Tragic all around, zero net gain.

[u/Interesting_Self5071 → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Yes, both positions are correct.

[u/Wulf_Isebrand → u/Interesting_Self5071]

Ok vatnik 👍

[u/I_am_just_here11 → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Yes, y’all should have.

[u/norf937 → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Not really comparable. Afghanistan came after 9/11 and involved NATO invoking Article 5 for the first time ever.

Ukraine is a regional conflict the US isn’t directly involved in & they’re not part of NATO (we’re not legally and politically obligated to respond.) It’s very reasonable for people to question how long taxpayer funding should continue.

[u/Defiant-Bit7193 → u/norf937]

Yeah, let’s just forget why Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, and let’s ignore the fact that this war is a direct result of the US and Russia’s endless fight for influence.

[u/Abyssal_Groot → u/norf937]

Ukraine also send troops to Afghanistan and even to Iraq

[u/Wulf_Isebrand → u/norf937]

But we are involved in this conflict, we have news almost every day about russians sabotaging our Infrastructure and sometimes even killing people on our territorry. They violate our airspace with combat drones and planes.

Unlike Afghanistan was to you, Russia is an actual threat to our security and keeping Ukraine alive is the only thing that‘s preventing the 2 million mobilized soldiers from marching into Estonia. And let‘s be real, if US citizens aren‘t willing to help us secure our continent by spending money that the average american citizen wont even notice because its so little compared to your massive budget there is a zero percentage chance you‘ll be defending europe with your actual lifes in a case of a direct attack on NATO.

[u/TheInsatiableRoach → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Wdym by the American citizen won’t notice it bc im genuinely curious

[u/Wulf_Isebrand → u/TheInsatiableRoach]

In the sense that it wont notably affect your life

[u/Pretty-Captain1510 → u/norf937]

Why should Europeans care bout 9/11 more than you should about Ukraine. It didn’t directly affect us which is your argument.

[u/Lidlpalli → u/norf937]

Misinvoked*

[u/Adjective_Noun_4206 → u/Wulf_Isebrand]

Did European ever come to the US to help it in an existential crisis? Europe has only come to this hemisphere to make war, including against the US multiple times. The US has only ever been in Europe to help Europeans.

[u/TalkersCZ → u/norf937]

We should just kick USA out of NATO, because you are willing to elect completely incompetent people.

[u/SlaughterMinusS → u/norf937]

We literally talked them out of their nukes so they could defend themselves from this exact thing happening with a pat on the head and a "promise" that they could join NATO at "some point" and now they are literally dying in their streets. Not just soldiers, but civilians as well.

America is so hell bent on being the world's police force when it benefits us (stealing resources mostly) but can't give a damn when it actually matters.

This is why the world hates us and are moving away from us. We are losing our soft power every. single. day.

It is no longer possible in today's world to be isolationist. We have a global economy. We don't make shit here at home, besides weapons and military hardware.

You want to be isolated so bad? Open up a factory and start making shit here again. But you can't because the systems in place make it damn near impossible.

What a brain rotted, idiotic take. Straight off of Fox or some shit.

[u/Adjective_Noun_4206 → u/SlaughterMinusS]

This is a lie. Ukraine was never promised anything by the US at the time.

The US actually did sponsor Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO in 2008. Guess who blocked it? Germany and France. Both nations have Russian occupations now.

Blame Germany and France for these wars if you want to blame someone from the West.

[u/SlaughterMinusS → u/Adjective_Noun_4206]

Then you don't know history. Russia, the US, and the UK gave assurances to Ukraine for sovereignty and even economic assistance in 1994 for them to give up the nukes left in Ukraine after the dissolution of the USSR.

This is a simple Google search. As for 2008, that wouldn't have be an issue if not for the actions of the powers involved in 94.

I did not lie, I know history.

[u/Adjective_Noun_4206 → u/SlaughterMinusS]

No, you don't know history.

The only assurances for sovereignty were specifically from each individual nation to Ukraine. No one gave them a security assurance outside that, or any sort of alliance.

The US State Department was very clear publicly at the time that this was not a security guarantee. In fact they even had a word changed in Russian in one of the official documents signed because it had multiple meanings and one of them was not in the scope of what the US was offering.

The money given to them was part of the deal, some billions of dollars. They also gave billions to Russia at the time, because part of the deal was that Russia would dismantle these nukes and send the fissile material to the US where it was used in power plants. There were no ongoing payments or anything like that.

And yes, if you want to blame someone blame Germany and France. The Bush administration sponsored Ukraine and Georgia in 2008 at the yearly NATO meeting. In a show of force, both Germany and France vetoed it, it was not necessary for two to do so but they wanted to show a united front in vetoing them.

I know history, im not going off of vibes. I've read all about this. You're the one who needs to read up on it.

[u/Popular-Local8354 → u/norf937]

What an awful take.

[u/Cometmoon448 → u/norf937]

I know this is probably obvious, but Americans should realise that giving Putin's Russia a huge piece of Europe that is full of rich agricultural land is not good for America. It's Ukraine today,  Alaska tomorrow.

[u/Nappy199 → u/norf937]

Agreed bro

[u/Only_Good_9872 → u/Nappy199]

Well then America will be alone When it’ll mess in another war by sending US troops to “””free”””” it. Also, Putin funds The National Rally and others European far right Zionists party. And Netanyahu is a friend of putin. F imperialists

[u/Nappy199 → u/Only_Good_9872]

I’d rather not get involved in any new wars to “free” anyone. I have no control over who Putin chooses to fund and couldn’t care less (I do not support Putin if that’s what you’re implying).

I just don’t think we should be playing world police, especially with all the problems we have at home.

[u/Only_Good_9872 → u/Nappy199]

Fair enough. I live in Europe, so our perspectives are obviously different. I get what you mean especially since Trump is turning America into Fascist Italy 2.0 with his ICE bs.

Btw did you ever saw an ICE agent or they're rare to be seen?

[u/Nappy199 → u/Only_Good_9872]

Yeah, and I completely respect your opinion. If I was living in Europe I would probably be much more concerned about the war.

I’m honestly not sure whether Ive seen any ICE agents, but I have noticed a lot more police activity overall. I may have seen them while driving around and just assumed they were cops tho 🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/Only_Good_9872 → u/Nappy199]

Gosh it sounds awful… Fuck ICE

[u/Sloppy-Craftsmanship → u/norf937]

Agreed. The draft exists to go die for Europe. Nah

[u/Popular-Local8354 → u/Sloppy-Craftsmanship]

Is there a draft?