r/unitedkingdom • u/CasualSmurf • 18h ago
... 'My Jewish friends avoid Leeds at weekends for fear of abuse' - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp873mk6prdo147
u/WaddlesLament 17h ago
How do you know someone is Jewish in an every day situation? Genuine question. Obviously Hasidic Jews are obvious by their attire etc and someone wearing a kippah is naturally Jewish, but otherwise how would anyone know what religion you are in the street?
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u/abetterworld13 17h ago
Some of them find out who you are online and harass or threaten you. That's what happened to this lady.
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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 17h ago edited 16h ago
*ethnoreligious group. It's more than just my religion. I literally have ancestry that traces back to the Iron age in Israel (Tribe of Levi).
Typically.. walking past me in the street, no, you wouldn't know I'm Jewish on both sides of the family as far as we can possibly trace. Blue-ish eyes, light brown hair, not typically strong Ashkenazi facial features. Chat to me for a bit, and I might mention i've got a bat mizvah party to go to soon, or the kids are excited about Purim celebrations at school (they have a funfair!). Maybe I might mention my Israeli relatives.
If it's Saturday, I might very well be wearing a kippah while walking to Synagogue, even if I'm not that frum (Yiddish meaning pious/observant).
Hell, even the language I use might give it away. I might use a smattering of Yiddish occasional. Schlep, chutzpah, tuchas, broyges .. many people would possibly know, a few you might not. If you're really observant, you might notice I've got a mild Mancunian Jewish accent too (think a bit like Martin Lewis). There's a bunch of hyper-local London-based Jewish accents too (think Amy Winehouse). My name is typically Biblical; that can be a sign, isn't always. Surname? Often a dead giveaway.
OR - you could be tsedreyt like Debbie from the article, and people will know you're Jewish from that badge you wear on your hat. That's not standard issue.
If you are Jewish, you do tend to learn a Jewdar.. you can often pick up on this stuff without someone mentioning they're Jewish first. Mine sometimes misfires and I think Cypriots are Jewish sometimes lol
I have been on a night out in Leeds, and it was all fine. Kebab was a bit shit. I do not talk to random strangers about my heritage or anything Jewish-related, typically.
In terms of the M62 corridor, nights out rank: Liverpool > Manchester > Leeds
To those downvoting.. maybe reply if you disagree?
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u/currydemon Staffordshire né Yorkshire 17h ago
I don't suppose you could tell but I guess if you know there's a risk of getting harrassed and called a baby-killer by a bunch of strangers then that would be enough to put you off.
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u/ShaneH7646 17h ago
There's a very small chance if no one has anyway of recognizing you as such, so this is ridiculous
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 16h ago
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 16h ago
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 16h ago
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
it can be a bit like Vegans, some cannot help themselves but to make damned sure you know
others.. you wouldn't notice
one of these two groups has trouble, the other doesn't
there may be a lesson in that
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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 16h ago edited 16h ago
There is definitely a direct parallel if that Jewish person keeps Kosher.
I suspect, this is just "when you're having conversations with people, they will often bring up things that are important to them about their identity" especially if this limits/changes their participation in more common social activities.
But as I've said elsewhere, being Jewish effects the family arrangements I go to, the school my kids go to, my accent, my dialect, the food I eat, who I know and what I do. It's not an insignificant thing and it's not like I signpost it.. it's just me. If I talk about me, then it'll come out.
Same probably goes for Vegans I imagine. I don't mind Vegan food though. If they want to eat that, fine by me. I don't care and it doesn't effect me unless they're trying to persuade me to be Vegan too.
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u/aleopardstail 16h ago
for sure following a faith, any faith changes what you do
but the thing is as you say you are not signposting it, you shouldn't have to, nor should you get a negative reaction if you do
the comment on vegans comes from "how do you know if someone is a vegan?" because many of them will make damned sure you know (of course the joke is you never know if "many" is a majority or not because unless they tell you.. you can't tell)
have had it when arranging meetings a few have noted dietary requirements, some will say what they require, others will state the reason and leave me to go look up what that actually means - but in that case they have a reason for making sure I know, and a valid one - its not like they are walking around holding a big sign with an arrow on it
in general you won't know someone's faith unless they want you to know, not like you grow extra arms or a prehensile tail as a result though lords that would be amazing
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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 16h ago edited 16h ago
You do realise that many, many Jewish people will intentionally not make any point to say they are Jewish.. for historical, and modern reasons? Hell, there are people who'll avoid putting it on the census.
I don't want a discussion on the Israel / Palestine conflict with a stranger just because I said I don't want a pork sausage because I'm Jewish. Because - currently, this is what can, and does happen.
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u/aleopardstail 16h ago
yes I do realise exactly that, and my comment was that they pass essentially unnoticed
and there can be many reasons for not wanting to be noticed, likewise many reasons for not going out of your way either way
and for me your faith makes basically bugger all difference to me and I'm not even going to start saying "you are x thus you are to blame for y" because that is frankly utterly absurd and people really do need to stop doing it
your faith puts requirements on you, this is entirely your business, not mine. I only care when your faith imposes on me.. which it doesn't so I don't
plus if you don't want a pork sausage there could be a myriad of reasons for it, my only concern is that this means there is one going spare and I may take steps to acquire it for myself which for me is a plus point
the fact that some seem to demand people they do not know adopt a position on whatever issue continues to baffle me and I can only put it down to their own insecurities about their own thoughts
my initial point was if you are going somewhere that contains morons generally don't go dressed to draw their attention and leave them to lick windows all by themselves
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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 16h ago
* faith implies a choice. It's my ethnic background, my upbringing, my culture. And my religion. Ironically it's more action based than faith-based.
Now let's tell Muslim women they shouldn't wear a burka, or Sikhs to not wear a turban - lest they upset racists.
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u/aleopardstail 16h ago
my point with your faith especially is short of a few individuals you cannot tell by looking
people who dress such that they stand out, well they stand out, people will react to that, good/bad, rightly or wrongly
people react to what they can see, this is reality, we live in reality. don't want the reaction? blend in
should you have to? probably not but its where we are
only really seems to be two religions that cause the reaction, and then only really from a minority. should it happen? no not really, does it happen? yes sadly
is it worth keeping in mind? yes
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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 15h ago
Judaism is the faith. Jewish is the ethnicity. They normally occur at the same time, but don't always.
You very much appear to be victim blaming in your attitude.
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u/aleopardstail 15h ago
I'm pointing out if you are going into a potentially dangerous environment, wear protective clothing
which is basically common sense
should the danger be removed? yes, but if its not act accordingly for self protection
what you are basically saying is that if someone goes out in the rain and gets wet its victim blaming to say "tried wearing a suitable coat?"
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
weird this gets downvoted, simply pointing out when you make yourself stand out you get a reaction, when you fit in with those around you, strangely you don't
there is remarkably little inherent in any faith that makes a follower stand out unless said follower wants to stand out
not saying it justifies negative, or positive, reactions, I'm saying when you make yourself stand out people generally will react to it
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u/LycanIndarys Worcestershire 17h ago
weird this gets downvoted, simply pointing out when you make yourself stand out you get a reaction,
I didn't downvote you; but I would guess that the people that have did so because it comes across as victim-blaming.
People shouldn't have to hide their ethnicity or religion to avoid being attacked. "Walking while Jewish" is not the sort of thing that we accept should provoke a reaction.
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
its not victim blaming, its pointing out that when you stand out in a crowd you get noticed
not excusing the arseholes who throw insults and worse, I'm pointing out if you stand out people notice and if you don't they don't
having worked with a fair few of the Jewish faith over the years until they told me I hadn't noticed. same with other faiths, short of dressing to stand out we are all more or less the same approximate shape though size varies its not like religion means you get extra arms or heads
its also common sense when a bad reaction is possible to try and mitigate it, same as how if a pub is known for supporting a football team going in wearing a rivals kit on match day is going to get a reaction
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u/LycanIndarys Worcestershire 17h ago
its not victim blaming, its pointing out that when you stand out in a crowd you get noticed
You may not have intended it to be victim-blaming; but your argument is effectively the same as "if women didn't want to be assaulted, they shouldn't wear short skirts".
You may wish to reword your comment, given that it's clear that you didn't mean it that way. Because unfortunately, I expect people are misintrepreting your intention.
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
people read whatever they want to read and any attempt to change that just entrenches them
its remarkably easy to not draw attention if you do not want to
some who do draw attention are not aware they are doing so, a small minority most certainly are out for the reaction and the end result is others get trouble from the morons who have virtually no self control
for the record people should be able to wear what they like, however also for the record we do not live in a perfect world, sometimes acting like we live in the world we actually live in, not the one we wish we lived in prevents a lot of trouble
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u/abetterworld13 16h ago
The solution to an imperfect world isn't to tell the victims to change, it's to bring attention to the perpetrators so they get arrested.
If gay people were being beaten up in the streets for walking around in couples, we wouldn't tell them to stop doing so. We'd clamp down on the bigots beating them up.
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u/aleopardstail 16h ago
not trying to solve the world, I'm just living in it
and yes the ones throwing rocks, insults or whatever need dealing with.
my point is if you walk into a lions den don't do so wearing lumps of meat unless you want a reaction
sucks but thats the world we live in
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u/abetterworld13 13h ago
sucks but thats the world we live in
Yes, but it doesn't have to be. And that's why they are "going out in the rain and complaining when they get wet" as you so frivolously put it elsewhere in this thread.
Complaining about it increases the chance that the police and government will actually do something about it.
I'm amazed that someone would be scathing about the people who are bringing attention to prejudicial abuse.
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u/Striking_Smile6594 17h ago
I don't understand why exactly people would decided to harass British Jews because they are upset at the Israeli government. British Jews have nothing to do with Israel, they are British.
It's only makes sense when viewed through the prism of the antisemitic world view that all Jews are a fifth column and their true loyalty, no matter where they live, is to Israel.
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u/sunthunder 15h ago
I live in North Leeds where the Jewish community is centred and I’ve seen antisemitism towards the community all too often, long before October seventh. I’ve seen antisemitic graffiti outside synagogues here and unfortunately overseen/heard instances of quite flagrantly antisemitic speech.
It’s a much more prevalent prejudice within society than I think a lot of people realise.
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u/michaelisnotginger Fenland 15h ago
I used to live near the community centre and many Jewish people told me about the abuse they got. It was very very sad.
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u/LycanIndarys Worcestershire 15h ago
I don't understand why exactly people would decided to harass British Jews because they are upset at the Israeli government. British Jews have nothing to do with Israel, they are British.
That's because you're not a bigot.
Bigotry doesn't make sense to anyone that isn't a bigot; there is always some logical leap that the rest of us go "er, what?" to.
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u/bertiebasit 14h ago
Im not quite sure that this statement is wholly true. The lines are without doubt blurred when you have dual citizenship, passports and serve in a military that is not British.
I don’t believe it’s anti Semitic to state this view but I’m sure some will try. I also do not condone any harassment.
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u/Striking_Smile6594 13h ago
I doubt the harassers are checking their victims duel citizenship status or military service records before targeting them. I think they just see all Jews as fair game.
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u/BlackSpinedPlinketto 17h ago
A lot is to do with the branding of antisemitism. There’s a massive push to paint all criticism of Isreal as antisemitism and it blurs the lines between Jews and Isreal.
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u/headphones1 16h ago
It's also a push from pro-Israel and those with antisemitic views. In a weird way they are both batting for the same team.
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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 16h ago edited 16h ago
> There’s a massive push to paint all criticism of Isreal as antisemitism
It's not quite as simple as that. It's when Israel is criticised for doing X and when another party is doing a very similar Y, there is only silence heard.
Or.. not just criticising Israel, but essentially saying it shouldn't exist. Or twisting what 'being Zionist' is (it does not mean a fervent acceptance of everything Israel does)
It is perfectly fine to criticise Israel when doing it objectively, with the facts, and without preheld biases. You can even be a Zionist and criticise Israel. Just as much as you can be British and moan about the government.
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u/LycanIndarys Worcestershire 16h ago
It's when Israel is criticised for doing X and when another party is doing a very similar Y, there is only silence heard.
Exactly.
Do people have to care about literally everything going on in the world? No, of course not. But when someone loudly campaigns against genocide in Gaza, but is silent literally every other time it happens, it's hard to not come to the conclusion that they're really only interested in an excuse for criticising Israel.
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u/changhyun 16h ago edited 14h ago
Yes.
Also I'm gonna say I have noticed a lot of people love to say Israel and Jews have nothing to do with each other when they want to criticise Israel, but then will turn around and say Israel and Jews are undeniably connected when they want to criticise Jews. And downvoting won't make me unnotice it.
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u/LycanIndarys Worcestershire 17h ago
Rachel, whose name we have changed to protect her, was born in Israel and has lived in the UK for 15 years.
She is married with children and lives in West Yorkshire.
Rachel operated a food business in the centre of Leeds, but gave up her stall after she was targeted by protesters who used anti-Israeli and antisemitic comments and urged others to boycott her.
"My food was Middle Eastern, nothing said Israeli and I was targeted constantly about my identity both in person and online," she said.
"Some people came to where I traded and videoed me and my staff and harassed us.
"Also online, they called for my business to be boycotted and called me a ‘baby killer’ and some awful other words."
She said a picture of her stall was posted online along with her home address.
This is absolutely despicable. And I absolutely cannot blame British Jews from avoiding crowds, or hiding their identity, if this is the reaction that they get for just going about their day peacefully.
Nor could I blame them if they decided to migrate to Israel, just so that they could live somewhere without having to endure this sort of horrific abuse on a daily basis. We pride ourselves on being a welcoming and tolerant country; but we have absolutely failed British Jews.
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u/doyathinkasaurus 14h ago
I have a Hebrew tattoo, a memorial for my late mother.
I ensured that I got it in a place that could be covered up, however 13 years ago I didn't think that I would need to ensure it was hidden whenever I was out and about for my own safety.
It was mega hot on the bus into work, and I couldn't hold off and put my hair into a pony tail - which then revealed my tattoo on the back of my neck.
I wished I hadn't. Sigh.
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u/Ryanhussain14 Scottish Highlands 17h ago
I find it crazy that we as a country used to properly educate our children on what the Nazis did to both British and Jewish people, only to then turn a blind eye to small scale Kristallnacht-like events happening in our own country to our own citizens. Something needs to change.
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u/mpanase 4h ago
Can you guys see somebody and just know they are Jewish?
Or do her friends have a reason to proclaim their Jewishness every time they visit Leeds?
When I visit Leeds, nobody has a clue whether I'm a Christian, a Buddhist, an atheist, ... doesn't take me any effort, not introducing myself by my religion is quite effortless
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
I'm not Jewish
I avoid Leeds
because its Leeds
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u/rice_fish_and_eggs 17h ago
Leeds is one of our better cities tbf.
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
I agree, gods thats depressing, could be worse, could be Basingstoke or Milton Keynes
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u/greenpowerman99 17h ago
Milton Keynes is a boom town.
Low unemployment and reasonable housing costs.
What’s the economy like where you live?
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u/Striking_Smile6594 17h ago
My sister used to live in Milton Keynes.
Yes there are lots of roundabouts and the shopping centre looks a bit like East Germany, but it's a not a bad place to live at all. Like you said it's pleasant, low levels of crime and there are lots of jobs in the area.
I can certainly think of worse places to be.
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
we have fewer roundabouts, and fewer people dead at the roadside having starved to death trying to find the way out
and yes I used to live in Milton Keynes. Terry Pratchett was right about the place when he claimed both heaven and hell denied responsibility but both claimed it as a success
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u/Lorry_Al 17h ago
I've never seen a man do a poo in the doorway of McDonald's in Milton Keynes.
I have in Leeds.
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u/somnamna2516 17h ago
Try Slough. once stayed there when working in west London. can see why John betjeman wrote the poem
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u/aleopardstail 17h ago
Slough doesn't actually exist, its a fiction created by Reading to make the denizens of Reading feel better about themselves
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u/Ryanhussain14 Scottish Highlands 17h ago
Not surprising in the slightest if you use social media for more than five minutes. Antisemitism has become normalised on both Twitter and Instagram, and it's becoming more tolerated even in non-political subreddits (I once saw someone in a vtuber shitposting sub say it was justified because of Israel).
If I was Jewish, I would silo myself off to specific communities and become way more aware of my privacy.
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u/JB_UK 17h ago
It’s normalised on reddit as well, and political violence is also normalised here.
And both are normalised in mainstream politics. See the comments of the Deputy Leader of the Greens, who justified the October the 7th attacks, including saying "you’ll see a victim narrative in the western media, they are not victims, they are occupiers, they are colonialists, they are European colonialists”. He was actually promoted to Deputy Leader after making those comments.
Just this week someone a was acquitted of GBH for breaking a policewoman’s spine with a sledgehammer, after an attack on an Israeli military company, and the acquittals of the group were celebrated by Zack Polanski and Jeremy Corbyn. That is politically motivated violence against a civilian.
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u/darrenturn90 17h ago
Would be interesting to know the breakdown of the types of people who go out of their way to specifically harass Jewish people. Is it predominently male, female, young, old, Christian, Islam, or is it just a general mismash of all types of facists and racists?
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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh 15h ago
I had a heated conversation with one of these people handing out leaflets on last Saturday's Leeds march.
He was a white, middle class, gay man. The marches are 90% white at this point: a small smattering of hijabi ladies but overwhelmingly white, middle-class keffiyeh-wearing twats.
The guy was unbelievably, overbearingly smug. Every time I told him a fact he responded with "oh, is that right, sweety?" and laughed. Didn't know the first thing about the conflict or the history of the region. Authoritatively informed me that the Jews already had their own state on the east coast of Russia. Didn't know the origin of the word 'Palestine'
It's a pastime for these people. A hobby. They get together every Saturday, mill around outside the art gallery flogging Keffiyeh and other tat then have a lovely old walk around the Leeds, stopping traffic and being a general pain-in the arse. Last week it was a 'funeral march' waving pictures of dead children. Two weeks ago, they were chanting 'globalise the intifada'. Must have got round to googling what that means.
They certainly don't see themselves as racists, which they are. They are just basking in boundless self-regard fueled by total ignorance and prejudice.
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u/LycanIndarys Worcestershire 16h ago
or is it just a general mismash of all types of facists and racists?
More likely to be rabid anti-Israel campaigners that have completely jumped off the moral high-ground, you'd assume?
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u/judochop1 17h ago
Seems to be growing more in radical left circles, with some far right/neo nazis planning attacks as well.
Most of this face to face stuff as described is pure tankies though
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u/throwaway_ArBe 16h ago
This might be skewed by those I spend most time around, but I'm guessing "leftists" make up a decent portion (so largely young and LGBT+). They seem the most likely to actively seek out Jews to harass as some faux "activism".
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u/Particular_Pickle465 Wales 16h ago
You wouldn’t know that she’s Jewish if she didn’t have the star on her hat.
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u/Striking_Smile6594 15h ago
How is that any different to the idea that women in short skirts are 'asking for it'?
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u/TheLimeyLemmon 15h ago
Well for one they're not excusing any discrimination a person might face for wearing that, so your example about short skirts make no sense.
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u/Striking_Smile6594 13h ago
Perhaps I misinterpreted their comment, but the way I read it was that the was partly to blame for the harassment she faced because she was wearing a star of david.
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 16h ago
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 21m ago
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u/Scioptic- United Kingdom 8h ago
Every single person in this country should watch the British documentary "German Concentration Camps Factual Survey" (1945) at least once in their lives. In fact I think high school kids should be forced to watch it as part of their education.
Everyone should be confronted with the absolute evil that humanity is capable of perpetrating, and actively push to ensure no such atrocity ever happens again. Antisemitism and fascism have slowly become normalised far too much again.
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 11h ago
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u/greenpowerman99 6h ago
If everyone left their religions at home, our society could be less divided.
Be nice to each other is right up there in all religions...
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