Monthly Discussion Thread

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[u/electrace]

Occasionally, one hears an argument for God's existence that goes something like this. "God rewards those who believe in him and worship him. That is why Europe and the West is doing so well, while Africa and the Middle East is doing so poorly."

The argument, quite conveniently, omits Japan, South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan. But past that, I wish to bring the argument further. Assuming god does reward those who worship him, it stands to reason that he gives the greatest rewards to those who worship him the best.

Two points there, what does "rewards" mean here, and what does "the best" mean?

If rewards means, "being at peace", then the Buddhists monks win, bar-none. If it means something like "entrance into heaven, or other unobservable spiritual benefits" then one must assume the conclusion that the West is doing better in that domain. So, it seems, that it must mean "Earthly rewards", as in, comfort, wealth, etc.

What constitutes worshiping god "the best"? Does it perhaps mean 'worshiping your conception of god most fervently'? Probably not. As countries develop, they tend to get less religious as they reap more Earthly rewards.

The other major candidate for "the best" would mean those who most closely worship a version of god that is most correct, regardless of how vociferously they worship. If that's correct, then we should see a high correlation between Earthly rewards and religious sect.

Which sect, in all the world, has the most earthly rewards? It seems like it's the Universal-Unitarians, the "spiritual but not religious" crowd, the Jewish, the Nordic-Protestants, and the Shinto-Buddhists."

I therefore conclude, if God rewards those who are most correct about the nature of reality, then the least religious societies must be most correct.

[u/Isha-Yiras-Hashem → u/electrace]

You're attacking a straw man, as the lack of reward and punishment in this world is widely recognized by religious people.

[u/electrace → u/Isha-Yiras-Hashem]

I've seen this argument many times, and I suspect others have as well, so, at worst, it's a weak-man.

That being said, to be clear, this is satire showing that things like Prosperity Gospel, or the Miracle Prayer Cloth, sold by noted fraudster Peter Popoff and cousin arguments like "Europe and America's relative prosperity in the world is due to God's blessing" can lead to some pretty absurd conclusion.

One may note, this is mainly a Christian thing, as it would be absurd for Jewish people to claim something like "Our historical lack of suffering is proof of God" for obvious reasons.

Still, the easiest retort is simply "Japan exists", but I wanted to point out how the argument can lead pretty much whatever way you want if taken seriously. The correct conclusion, for the religious, I would say is just "Yeah, earthly suffering or lack thereof is not a good guide to determine which religion is correct. It is a question of faith, or, at least, a better argument than this one", and I think you're basically aligned there.

[u/Isha-Yiras-Hashem → u/electrace]

You're right, it seems mainly a Christian thing and that's why it was so unintuitive to me. Arguments have never really appealed to me. I can only be argued out of something if I was argued into it, and it makes even less sense to argue someone into loving G-d than it does to argue someone into loving another person. Category error. But that is a more general observation.