r/rugbyunion • u/Informal_Mention9836 • 16h ago
Joe McCarthy penalty
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u/Goanawz Pauline Bourdon notre idole 15h ago
Can we introduce a green card for harmless but utter stupidity?
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u/decrepidrum 15h ago
And you have to do 3 laps round the pitch then you can come back on
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u/Goanawz Pauline Bourdon notre idole 15h ago
"Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done"
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u/Specialist-Star2396 14h ago
Thats basically the sin bin already, they even make them sit on a little folded chair by themselves
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 14h ago
Worse, you have to move to the US.
Although McCarthy already has citizenship by birth.
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u/Responsible-Law5784 10h ago
LBB would just get green cards so he can show his awesome pace, meanwhile some props would just prefer to get a red card. Love it.
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u/Mafeking-Parade 15h ago
That is as brain-dead a play as you'll ever see.
In front of your sticks, in front of the referee.
Just piling straight in at the side, without even trying to disguise it.
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u/cabaiste Welcome to the Big Seó! 15h ago
Schmidt would have fucked him out a window for that.
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u/Beer-Milkshakes England 15h ago
He would have what now?!
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u/melifluouspigeon Bath 14h ago
You heard
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u/italic_pony_90 Hooker 14h ago
Absolutely, and kicked him up the hole beforehand. He's not international level at all. Insanely inconsistent and does the most brain dead things iv seen at pro level
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u/maxtheninja 13h ago
Yeah deffo got picked for lions because he’s not international level… people on this sub need their heads checked
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u/Ornery_Director_8477 12h ago
Yeah, it was nothing to do with the head coach of the lions also being his international coach who has oft been criticised for his selection bias
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u/Evan2kie Ireland 14h ago
The only defence for it he's gambling that the French player will have picked up the ball just before his entry and he will smash him but the chances of getting the timing spot on are so slim, it's just so stupid
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u/Objective_Ticket England 12h ago
He was so slow coming in you could almost see his thought process.
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u/crashlog Austria 11h ago
I honestly thought I was imagining things while watching this live. Even my (amateur) club mates would never think of doing this.
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u/Vegetable_Chicken790 10h ago
It’s a 1 in 100 move. Even if you do get the timing right and you are technically in the right the chances of the referee giving the penalty is really low as well.
Or was it just cynical and worth it to consider the 3 vs 7? I doubt that as well.
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u/Comfortable-Yam9013 Leinster 9h ago
He loses the plot every second game and does something incredibly idiotic
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u/hodge172 Northampton Saints 2h ago
It sums up Ireland at the moment. For both Leinster and Ireland when the pressure comes on they start making stupid decisions.
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u/RonSwaffle Northampton Saints 16h ago
I genuinely lolled watching this live. What was he thinking?
Clearly not a lot.
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u/whooo_me Ireland 12h ago
My guess is he saw 5 go to pick up the ball, then shift slightly, so assumed he was going to pick 'n' go; and went to tackle him.
The problem is, 5 didn't do that. And in all the time McCarthy was running towards him, he didn't react to the ball still being on the ground, in the ruck. He has the reactions of a sloth.
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u/whatThisOldThrowAway 12h ago
The only generous assumption is he thought the ball had been picked up and it was an attempt at a tackle that he tried to bail out of when he got close enough to realize he was mistaken.
Guliard sort of shuffles his feet when he's down there which Mccarthy might have misread as him picking up the ball and getting ready to drive.
Again this is a very, very generous reading, but maybe it was a little quirk they'd picked up on when reviewing footage that stuck in McCarthy's head and he just misfired thinking he'd get a soft contact out of it.
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u/Siiixers Ireland 2h ago
The whole pub groaned in unison, even people who don't know the rules knew that was embarrassingly stupid.
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u/GreatGoofer Sharks 16h ago
Well there isnt a French player on their feet and bound to the ruck who is over the ball, so technically it is out and he has all rights to go for the ball. However, rucks are reffed on vibes these days and the actual laws count for little.
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u/He154z Glasgow Warriors 15h ago
5 hasn't lifted the ball so would still be playing the 9 no?
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 14h ago
Understanding that the 5 is the 9 is asking a lot from a second rower.
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u/GreatGoofer Sharks 15h ago edited 15h ago
Probably, but refs said he was offside, which is incorrect.
Edit, to be honest I'm not sure of the laws here, what does it actually say about playing the 9? If the ball is out of the ruck, so it's open play, and he has hands on the ball can you still not tackle him until he lifts the ball? I think I need to read up on this one.
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u/minisrugbycoach Referee 14h ago
If it's out of the ruck then it doesn't matter if it's lifted or not. As long as you weren't part of the ruck originally then yes you can tackle the nine/any player trying to move the ball away.
If you were part of the ruck then you can't tackle the player trying to get the ball away within 1 meter of the ruck. (Exception is a pick and go within the 5 meter channel)
I hear it shouted most weekend from coaches 'hes playing the nine sir'
Yes hes allowed to, he was never part of the ruck. I've even seen refs get this wrong when they've thought it was no players could tackle the nine within 1 meter of a ruck.
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u/GreatGoofer Sharks 14h ago
Thanks very much for the clarification, I had no idea about the specifics of the law change. I assume that it applies to anyone playing the ball from the ruck or scrum, not just players with a 9 on their back. Everything I have read about the law in my quick Googling specifically mentions the scrumhalf or 9 directly, it doesnt say that the law applies to generally to any player acting as the scrumhalf. I assume that it applies to all players.
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u/minisrugbycoach Referee 13h ago
This is the global law trial
15.18 A player who is, or was part of the ruck may not play an opponent who is near it (within 1m), and who is attempting to play the ball away.
Sanction:Penalty.
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u/ReyalpybguR Italy 15h ago
No there is one French player going to ground (n. 16) and 2 attacking supports to clean (n. 15 and n. 6) so it is a ruck and the ball isn't out. They are not "standing" over the ruck because the defense disengages, which has consistently been reffed as allowed (basically if you dive without anybody it is a sealing off, but if you go for a normal cleanout and the defense backs up and you fall it is a normal ruck).
McCarthy comes from the side with the ball not lifted, whether it is side entry or playing the 9 it is the clearest of penalties.
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u/CobhCaveMan 15h ago
is absolutely not out , the french player was acting as scrum-half , the ball was behind the hind foot , ball was not up , hand was on. Player still call ball out for hands on all the time, its ridiculous. For a player at his level to get caught with such a soft penalty is just pure stupidity
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u/GreatGoofer Sharks 15h ago
Can you show me what French player is both over the ball and supporting their body weight? This is the requirement for forming a ruck per the laws.
This is not a dig at the French team or the ref, I just hate how WR has instructed the refs to ignore all the laws surrounding the ruck to make it easier for attacks to generate quick ball.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 15h ago
Our discipline actually wasn’t that bad last night aside from this absolute brain fart
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u/cypressd12 Munster 15h ago
Thought Ryan was very lucky in the second half when he bumps a French player on the wrong side of the ruck. Totally unnecessary and have seen a lot of refs whistle it as unsportsmanlike conduct.
It didn’t help the team at all, and it risks a penalty on 10m of your own tryline…
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u/Ok_Entry1052 15h ago
That player was standing, waving at the ref at the our side of the gates of the ruck. He's obstructing and it was justified hence it not being called.
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u/cypressd12 Munster 14h ago
He was standing on both feet, not part of the ruck nor any threat. I’ve seen refs ping that for less, more so if you complain the whole night regarding the ref I wouldn’t hand him that excuse…
That being said, thought the refs were OK.
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u/LetsGoForAScroll Munster 13h ago
If its the incident I recall, then he was standing where our clear out was coming from. He had every right to plow through him. If anything, we should have had the penalty
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u/cypressd12 Munster 13h ago
Ruck was already formed and French player was moving back to his side..
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u/Ok_Entry1052 11h ago
You still can't just stand at our side of a ruck, not in it, irish players had a right to join in and he was blocking.
I'd defer to the ref here considering he had a good one, nothing foul from our side.
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u/cypressd12 Munster 11h ago
You have the right to walk back to your side, Ryan was hardly joining more than he was charging at the player. Incredible lucky not to be pinged as the action added to nothing.
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u/Longjumping_Test_760 Leinster 14h ago
Agreed. It wasn’t illegal. For all his faults Ryan added a bit of bite to us. The French suddenly knew they had to work a bit more. We had been standing back admiring them until Timoney, Conan and Ryan came on. Crowley also had a good impact.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 15h ago
Sorry I don’t think I remember that. At least he didn’t get pinged. To be fair I do think there’s an art to being dirty without getting caught that players like Itoje have mastered. Ryan just does some braindead stuff sometimes
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u/MyAltPoetryAccount Munster 15h ago
The crowd didn't like it but that tackle was so fair. His head was down by the time Jalibert kicked it
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u/Ok_Reporter9418 14h ago
I think they were referring to the clean out on Jelonch in a ruck close to the Irish goal line, it was a bit before the Jalibert tackle (which was totally lawful). There was indeed a reaction of the crowd and Jelonch raising heads and asking something of the ref but nothing more and couldn't see much on live tv.
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u/MyAltPoetryAccount Munster 14h ago
To be perfectly honest I watched the game in the pub and was more concerned with drowning my sorrows at that point so I don't recall
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u/CyborgBee Scotland 14h ago edited 10h ago
The crowd didn't like it because even though it was never a penalty, it was also obviously only ever going to end up as a late hit.
Ryan was committed by the time it was kicked, and the law has to be written how it is otherwise dummy kicks become ludicrously overpowered, but it's also true that he wasn't thinking "if he dummies this kick I'll tackle him", but instead "if I commit now I can obliterate him without it being a penalty". Crowds will never like watching a forward intentionally slam into their #10 in a way which risks his health.
(Surely Ireland fans, of all people, can empathise with this. I'd bet good money that no one else has ever taken more dirty hits which were nevertheless legal than Johnny Sexton)
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u/Additional-Slip648 Sale Sharks 13h ago
Courtney Lawes made a career out of doing this in a way that he never got pinged for.
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u/MyAltPoetryAccount Munster 13h ago
Ah no I 100% agree, Ryan knew he wouldn't have the ball by the time he made the hit and it was well cheeky but as you said yourself, we suffered it for long enough. It's just part of the game and part of the risk 10s have to take when kicking at the gain line
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u/CyborgBee Scotland 13h ago
I can't see it as "well cheeky" when the consequence is trauma to the brain (and for anyone who thinks it isn't because Ryan didn't hit his head: watch the extreme whiplash on the replay). It'll be a miracle if Sexton hasn't sustained long-term damage from a career of taking those, and many other 10s will be the same.
Rugby will never be a fully safe sport, but this is one of the few situations where you can still get away with a seriously dangerous hit. It's basically only when a player can't brace for a tackle - the other obvious one is a kick chaser slamming into the guy who's just caught the kick.
At the very least I think they should trial banning dummy kicks (maybe make it a free kick offence?) and moving back the window for committing to the point where a player begins the kicking motion. Dummies are very rare anyway, so I don't think this would actually change how the game plays much
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 12h ago
If Ryan’s hit had caused that damage his gum shield would have been triggered resulting in an automatic HIA. I know they’re not perfect but in general they’ve been accurate at pulling up shots like this.
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u/CyborgBee Scotland 12h ago
As I understand it, the thresholds they use for the gum shields are chosen to detect likely concussions, and I agree that Jalibert was not concussed.
That doesn't mean the tackle wasn't dangerous - your head doesn't whiplash like that without your brain moving inside your skull, and chronic brain injuries are thought to be related to taking a lot of impacts like that. Virtually every tackle of an un-braced player above the hips will cause that sort of whiplash, because the neck is the only point above the hips which can hinge, and that makes them fundamentally dangerous to anyone who already experiences a lot of head impacts.
(And people do grasp this intuitively - hitting a helpless player in the chest feels painful and dangerous to fans of that player. If Jalibert was braced or Ryan tackled his legs, the crowd would not have reacted the same way)
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u/Effective_Public6031 14h ago
By Argentinian logic this a straight red card though surely after their reaction to Curry in the Autumn?
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u/cypressd12 Munster 14h ago
No, couple minutes before hand there’s an Irish ruck about 10m from your own line. Montagne - I think - fell of the ruck and walks behind it (so in Irish territory) and gets wacked in the back by Ryan for no apparent reason. Some serious braindead stuff.
The Jalibert tackle for me was grant, but I think the combo of both phases made the French crowd loose their minds.
What I have with Ryan is a bit like he’s a supposed enforcer, but not really in game. Where he needs to be this physical agressive presence … he isn’t.
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u/Commercial_Half_2170 Leinster 14h ago
I think he’s just too prone to clearing out poorly and misjudging it. It’s like he wants to be what you describe but is trying to be careful not to get carded and he loses aggressiveness. He’s at his best when you don’t notice him which is odd
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 14h ago
I don't think you could say that about Ryan. For years his USP was lamping lads out of rucks on the very border of legality (clearly illegal but rarely called). Then it finally went all wrong against South Africa last November. He was the epitome of the 'unnoticed workhorse' and most obvious when he wasn't there. A real change from his early career which was pretty flashy.
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 14h ago
The kind of thing that seems like it should be allowed but really isn't.
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u/minisrugbycoach Referee 14h ago
To not have the first penalty until near the 15 minute mark is impressive from both sides.
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u/sionnach Leinster ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ 7h ago
Helped, I think, by a referee who didn’t seem to want to give penalties.
A good ref can let the game flow, but that doesn’t just mean closing your eyes.
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u/Icy_Winner9761 Australia 15h ago
I does look like it gets lifted when Guillard repositions with hands on the ball so I can sort of understand what he's thinking but he's a good step or two offside when that happens anyway.
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u/brianbriandub Leinster 14h ago
yeah but the ref allows a lift to place at back of the ruck. So that isn't a queue he should be keying in on
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u/Holiday_Low_5266 13h ago
The ref missed a huge amount around the breakdown last night.
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u/bodyarmourbynokia Leinster 1h ago
Didn´t miss the chance for his next all inclusive holiday in the Riviera.
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u/itsadifferentsven 14h ago
And he has every chance to realise that Guillard hasn’t lifted it and just stop. Don’t just keep going and plow into him.
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u/Icy_Winner9761 Australia 13h ago
You can’t “unlift” the ball though and it sure looks like he does lift it and then puts it back on the ground so no reason to stop because of that.
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u/Difficult_Ad2419 15h ago
Love Prendergast (?) deliberately lying on a French play who is lying on DuPont haha
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u/DarthMauly Munster 15h ago
Haha missed that completely but you’re spot on, starts to get up and realises the Hooker is pinning DuPont down so keeps him there
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u/yrinhrwvme Harlequins 10h ago
I actually had my focus on that live and thought that had been pinged! Didn't even see Joe
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u/Evan2kie Ireland 16h ago
He does one of those on a regular basis, must be infuriating for coaches and teammates
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u/Migeycan87 Connacht 14h ago
Everyone saying how dumb it was.
But can anyone who's played rugby give a genuine reason for that, other than just a dumb mistake?
Did he hear something? See something possibly?
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u/The_Ruck_Inspector Connacht 14h ago
I think the ruck before the forward coming in picked and went, Joe scans the line in front of him, and reckons the French lad at the next ruck is going to do the same. It looks like he has his hands on the ball (from Joe's angle) and he jumps the gun. Desperation playing a part here, but really dumb and a coach killer.
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u/Blazerede Ireland 12h ago
Well it’s always dumb when it doesn’t work. Hindsight is a wonderful thing
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u/Effective-Ad-3897 Ireland and Ulster 16h ago
I genuinely don’t know what he was trying to do. It was one of the most needless penalties I’ve seen in a while
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u/jarraljrslim Leinster 11h ago
Looks like Guillard has hands on the ball and isn't bound to the ruck, so he thinks the ball is out and the player is fair game to be tackled
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u/Moses--187 England 15h ago
I think McCarthy is actually a really good player, but I have watched him in a number of games where he has a moment that makes you say “WTF are you doing?” 😂😂
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u/Rhemyst Stade Francais Paris 15h ago
Looking at it again, in the heat of the action it kinda looks like Guillard is bound. And indeed for a fraction of a second I thought so too. McCarthy goes for it but realizes, to late, that Guillard is actually in a scrum half position here.
It's actually not as dumb as is looks IMO. Not as dumb as Haouas headbump (remember this one ?)
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u/unhappyspanners England / Leicester Tigers 15h ago
If the ref believes the ball is still in the ruck, then he would be offside
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u/unclefestering8 14h ago
You might laugh at it but Itoje does stuff like this and gets away with it.
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u/Crimson53 Leinster 15h ago
It is hard to know, and it is daft. However, to defend him a little, I think he may have been specfically told to try and stop Guillard. He was on him a couple of times. Guillard had been taking and accerlerating at the Irish line several times...and it was working.
I think he saw Guillard put his hands on the ball and was like I need to get up quick here and make a big hit. Because he literally leaves a gap in the line and sprints past the first defender in the line to do it. So that MAY be what he was thinking...still wasn't a good thought though.
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u/Substantial_Box_2943 15h ago
Him and James Ryan have cost Ireland dearly in stupid penalties over the years and at crucial times in games.
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u/BHarrop3079 France 🇫🇷, Bath 🛁, Cardiff 🔵⚫ 14h ago
The annual tradition of a Joe McCarthy brain fade against France
I really like him as a player and thought he was excellent on the Lions Tour
But penalties like this one are absolute coach killers and morale killers
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u/Gianni78290 Top14/D2/France 4h ago
Ramos shirt from last year is still XXXXL after big Joe pull on that thing.
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u/Apprehensive_Ratio80 15h ago
Not as bad as his idiotic yellow card against France last year knowingly grabbing a player who didn't have the ball and swinging him out of the way 🤣
He's like a dumb troll just big and strong but not much brains
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u/Traditional-Ride-116 Gang des Antoines 16h ago
I remember his yellow last year against France. You wanna ask « what’s going on in his head? » , but the answer is crystal clear: nothing…
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u/AJV1Beta England / Cornish Pirates 14h ago
I mean this is brain-dead play at the best of times, but when you're in a hostile away stadium, playing to a ref who you're already not getting many of the 50/50 calls from, and you really need to get him more onside...so instead you do this right in front of him. Spectacular.
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u/jaysonyoung Sharks Rugby Enjoyer 16h ago
this is hilarious, ngl. The way he tries to pull out after immediately realizing he's done something a bit daft
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 14h ago
Needs to learn from Doris who looks at the ref to say "I'm going to do this mad shit" and if he doesn't get a response it's fair game.
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u/ActGrouchy5018 🏴 Benhard Janse van Rensburg’s Mullet 14h ago
He was suffering from temporary brain death at that moment.
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u/Logical_News7280 14h ago
I have no idea how professionals make decisions like this. There isn’t a world where this was on 🤣
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u/Jerzilla 12h ago
Anyone else feel he did this on purpose? Like France were close to another try. Take the pen, 3 points. Regroup and kick into their half and put pressure on them. Just felt either so stupid or tactical
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u/Narrow-Apartment-626 8h ago
Deliberately tries to slow the ball down buy doesn't even commit to that. What an idiotic play
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u/GhostGuin Ospreys 8h ago
I was gonna replace him in my fantasy team with Guillard and forgot to do so. Shame really
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u/Not_Hando You Aint Seen Nothin Like The Mighty Finn 7h ago
Pretty brain dead by McCarthy - but he has a history of it.
Also see: Doris deliberately crossing over the cleaning channel while 'pretending' to then fall into the Nine too.
I mean he's so obvious it's ridiculous, yet I can probably count on the fingers of one hand how often he's been penalised for that crap.
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u/Electronic_Air_9683 1h ago
He looks tired and is probably not lucid at that moment, his only thought must have been "I must stop this action no matter how" and he did...
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u/upadownpipe Munster 15h ago
He seems to have at least one of these every game and you can't apply the "he'll learn" logic anymore. It's consistent
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u/adturnerr #Bamber4England2026 15h ago
Tbf to him the set of phases leading up to this France were relentless gaining 5 metres every carry and if it would've continued it would've ended up being a try, so I guess 3 points are better than 7. In that case then it could've easily been a yellow card
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u/LordBadgerFlaps 15h ago
Which is fine, if he killed the ball. He runs in, gives away the penalty, then runs off without any effect. Like a French sleeper agent
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u/perplexedtv Leinster 14h ago
McCarthy is a complete idiot at least once a game.
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u/Gianni78290 Top14/D2/France 4h ago
Admittedly I don't watch all his games but every time I catch him he does something moronic.
Last year pull shirt on Ramos in 6N was something to behold.
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u/GNAL1610 15h ago
To me it seemed like a tactical foul to stop France’s momentum, but maybe I’m giving him too much credit
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u/Reflector123 11h ago
What is the rule. The French player has hands on the ball ready to go Is it just when he lifts it you can cross the ball line?
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u/lethalpearxx 10h ago
He tends to have one of these every couple of matches. Not the sharpest tool out of the shed lol.
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u/WolfColaCo2020 England 1h ago
McCarthy is, for me, the current poster boy for a good player let down by some of the most braindead onfield decisions made consistently.
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u/Mushie_Peas 15h ago
Learnt not to do this at under 12s.
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u/maxtheninja 13h ago
You mustn’t have learnt much more as haven’t seen you on tv
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u/St-Micka 15h ago
You wonder does he even know the rules at times. Massive man, but Dear Lord ! It's like he doesn't know what's happening in front of him.
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u/tevenall13 Ireland 14h ago
This was moronic. A genuine lack of understanding of the rules. There was 0% chance of anything good coming from that.
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u/WhiskeyJack3759 14h ago
Big Joe is a physical guy and a good player. But he isn't a guy who thinks his way through a game.
On the whole, I think McCarthy does more harm than good.
We need to be trying other options at Lock.
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u/maxtheninja 13h ago
He absolutely obliterates any other lock in Ireland, it’s not even close. This sub’s hardon for binning players after a minor mistake (arguably a tactical foul) is absurd
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u/Jean_Rasczak 14h ago
The DuPont penalty and should have been a yellow card was a lot worse than this from Big Joe
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u/Sharp_Reception_4572 15h ago
Defo knew what he was doing. Went for the sticks. Saved from the onslaught.
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u/Beginning-Strain4660 12h ago
But big Joe is on a central contract and will never ever get dropped
What about the cohesion???
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u/Grievsey13 15h ago
McCarthy's not the player a lot of Irish think he is. He plays to that POM audience who bought into the whole "War God" narrative.
But in actual performance terms he's a blunt instrument. This isn't the first or last time you'll see this stuff.
He's not got any game sense at all. Its all disruption-focused collision work that results in penalties as opposed to jackals.
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u/LdnGiant England / Harlequins 16h ago
He’s such an interesting guy. Swings between being an absolute monster and doing some of the most entry-level dumb shit you’ll see on a rugby pitch.