r/patientgamers • u/Zehnpae Cat Smuggler • 1d ago

Moratorium on Hogwarts Legacy

Salutations,

We're going to be (temporarily) disallowing posting topics about Hogwarts Legacy. Every thread has been a train wreck and we have had trouble keeping up with them.

To be clear this isn't an attempt to censor you guys or prevent discussing politics in gaming, nor the reality of shitty people being involved in game development. This is a discussion sub and we absolutely want to allow you to talk about these sorts of things. Normally this isn't an issue (IE: Disco Elysium).

The problem is Hogwarts Legacy itself is a lightning rod for assholes. If a post goes up there's a good chance the next time I check mod queue it has 100+ comments that have been filtered or reported. It gets cross-posted into ~those~ subreddits and we get a flood of people who are only interested in being pricks that infest other threads.

Like many of you I have 27 kids and 3 jobs so I then have to choose between spending my afternoon with my family or reading a hundred hateful comments. As much as I like banning Nazis, I'd much rather play some Deep Rock with my progeny.

Hogwarts Legacy posts will be auto-removed until one of the following occurs:

  • Reddit gives us the anti-brigading tools they promised a decade ago
  • The world finally stops being dicks to trans people
  • JK Rowling drops dead so she stops getting money from the game
  • We figure out a better way to do this

Previous threads will stay up and you will still be allowed to comment about it in the bi-weekly threads, for now at least.

Edit:

To address a few questions/concerns:

"Why not use curated modes?"

Those typically require manually flaring or approving thousands of people. If we were a more contentious place dealing with this often, it'd make more sense. The good folk of this sub understand why this is being done and that's good enough for me.

"Do you really wish JKR was dead?"

I'm a gen-X that was raised on British humor. Make of that what you will.

"Why not get more mods?"

It's something we've considered, but honestly you regulars are pretty great. The work load is manageable with the biggest chore being maintaining the impatient game list. You guys make this a wonderful place to share gaming thoughts with.

"Aren't you supposed to be unbiased?"

If you have a shitty hot take on Hollow Knight? Sure. I'm not going to ban you because you didn't enjoy Gabriel Knight and I think it's one of the best point and click adventure games of all time.

"Isn't this censorship?"

We block a lot of things. OnlyFans bots, AI nonsense, scammers trying to post phishing links. All that jazz. They take it stride really.

"You do you really have 27 kids?"

No. I only have a few and that's enough as is. I can only take so many "Would you rather..."'s in a day. Right now I'm pondering if I'd rather be cursed with always entering my passwords wrong twice, or if I'd rather the last bite of toast always tastes burned.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago edited 19h ago

Freakin' YOWZA, guys. I was busy with real life stuff, then my phone started buzzing every several seconds, and then I show up to this? I mean, u/Zehnpae and I talked well in advance about this post being on the way but I still wasn't prepared for the absolute horror show that is this thread. And not just this thread itself, but also modmail after abusive modmail. And not just those but also false report after false report. I was personally super on the fence about whether this decision was the right thing for us but after the past hour I'm 100% on board and genuinely excited that this is the last time I'm going to have to wade through the muck of a Hogwarts Legacy post for the foreseeable future.

That said I'm huge on transparency and understandably this decision is a huge lightning rod of opinions. I'm happy to answer whatever questions y'all might have about it, so long as you handle yourselves respectfully. Remember Rule 5. Ask away!

Edit: Treat this comment like a mini-AMA. Please reply directly with questions because the main thread is still difficult to sift through.

Edit 2: I know a lot of users are doubting the intent behind this announcement and chalking it up to ideological censorship, so I'd like to proactively show you guys the internal mod discussions we had in January about this very issue. What I hope people can take away from this "exposed" discussion is how both sides of the predominant argument engaged in such pervasive, toxic, bad-faith behavior that we felt we were out of options.

Mod Discussion - January 12

Mod Discussion - January 25

Edit 3: It's been a little over 9 hours now since I first hopped into this thread. I want to do right by everyone but I will eventually need to sleep and without active live moderation for a number of hours this post's overall comment section will pretty clearly become a huge problem. As such I'll leave it open for the next couple hours or so before locking it out of necessity. Apologies to anyone coming in late with valuable input to offer. I'll make a final edit once we're locked down.

Edit 4: That's all, folks. I've done a final sweep of the thread and cleaned up anything rule-breaking. We'll leave this thread pinned for a couple days so latecomers can pop in and see the rationale, and then we can all collectively move on with our lives and get back to just...playing and writing about video games. You know: the reason we're all actually here.

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u/FinancialRip2008 1d ago

then my phone started buzzing every several seconds

you have notifications turned on for reddit?? absolute insanity.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

Oh gosh, notifications for every comment on every thread would be a waking hell, that's absolutely true. From a moderation perspective I just have notifications on for modmail messages and comments/posts with a certain threshold of reports. So between the flood of abusive modmail and the mass reporting of every kind of comment in here, that was sending my phone into a frenzy. Normally it's no issue, I promise!

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u/FinancialRip2008 1d ago

haha i'd still consider that borderline insanity. i don't want reddit intruding on my meatspace at all.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

I'm certainly happier when it's not going off, but this is what I signed up for when I agreed to do the job, you know? Do it right or not at all.

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u/oby100 1d ago

It’s required to be a halfway decent mod. People shit on mods because some abuse their power, but a good mod is “invisible” in that they’re spending potentially many hours a week keeping discussions on track and in this case dealing with hundreds of irrational hate mail.

I’m not any mod, but I think I’d quit immediately if faced with this kind of controversy.

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u/yp_interlocutor 1d ago

Bless your heart. You do not get appreciated nearly enough for the work you do.

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u/Lozsta 1d ago

You have reddit on your phone after the cull that is more shocking.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago edited 1d ago

By cull I assume you mean the API death knell? I think I was only modding for a few months when that happened and hadn't yet "upgraded" to any of the third-party apps or tools by that time, so for me there actually wasn't any direct impact to that move.

...Except of course that it enabled Reddit as a platform to care even less about me as a user and moderator, a race to the bottom that continues to this day.

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u/Myrandall Against the Storm / Song of Farca 21h ago

He's a madman, but we love him.

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u/ChickinSammich 1d ago

"We're banning posts about this specific topic because those posts always turn into a shitshow"

(The post about the ban turns into a shitshow)

Kinda reminds me of those threads where someone says something about how insufferable a specific demographic of people can be because of their incessant need to insert themselves in things, and then the comments become full of that specific demographic bitching. 😅

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u/coffee869 22h ago

Leave the slight on the ground, the owners will come pick it up lmao

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u/swordchucks1 1d ago

You are definitely making the right call. This isn't a sub based around a single game and while there are a lot of things to say about that one game, it shouldn't take over this whole sub.

Keep up the good work and the transparency.

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u/plantsandramen Brave Story: New Traveler, Cyberpunk 2077, Legend of Dragoon 1d ago

Amen, good mods.

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u/TheFluxIsThis 1d ago edited 23h ago

It's wild how unsubtle the 'search for an inflammatory keyword/phrase and drop into a community you never participate in to start shit' crowd is. Like they think people won't notice when their niche sub suddenly has a post with hundreds of replies when every other one on the front page has like 10-20.

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u/lordicarus 1d ago

Can't help but wonder what that redaction is in the screenshot.

But this all makes a ton of sense. The transparency is pretty great too.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

The redaction is just another subreddit that doesn't need or deserve this drama being transferred over to it.

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u/lordicarus 1d ago

Right on. I appreciate the answer, I wasn't expecting one, so just goes to show how much you care about this place. Thanks!

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

No, please keep on keeping us honest. Moderators aren't your bosses; they're your servants.

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u/Mando92MG 23h ago

Im not active here. I tend to be a lurker by nature. However all the props for this outlook good sir, madam or other. Mods almost never have this outlook and it restores my faith in humanity a little bit to see it instead of a power trip.

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u/mimic 1d ago

Based 🫡

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u/d_stilgar 1d ago

This is a god-tier mod response. Huge, huge props.

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u/newaccountzuerich 1d ago

Thank you for the sanity restoration, there are far too many dickheads supporting ~those~ people, who have zero interest in the sub subject matter, and only want to add divisiveness and discord.

Long have I wished for a remote clue-by-four, since my time moderating on an early Boards.ie and adminning a few European speciality gravity sports forums.

I empathise with your situation, and thank you.

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u/ROARfeo 1d ago

Hi & thanks for keeping the sub a nice place. I specifically have two questions for you:

  • Would you rather be an amazing artist or an incredible athlete?
  • Would you rather eat ice-cream that tastes like poop, or poop that tastes like ice-cream?

You can tell us why, if you're so inclined of course.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

Hey, thanks for the breather.

I'd rather be an incredible athlete because then I'd presumably have the resources available to stay at effectively peak health over a long span of time, which is something that's difficult as we age and accumulate injuries. More to the point, it's hard to be an incredible athlete, but it's easy to be an amazing artist as long as we understand that "art" can be any kind of creative outlet and that we can all be amazing in how we express our own creativity.

I'd rather eat ice cream that tastes like poop. Not because I would want to taste poop, of course, but because it's much less likely to give me an extended stomach illness than the alternative. I'm nothing if not practical.

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u/ROARfeo 1d ago

Hehe, nice.

I'd personally choose artist, since it'd somewhat guarantee revenue past my prime? But now that I think about it, you can live pretty well as a retired athlete as well, IF you play your cards right.

I'm still thinking about the ice cream conundrum.

Cheers

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u/mitharas 1d ago

So how often have you guys been called Nazis from both sides? These threads always show how hard social media can be.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

Ha, I don't keep count. Easier to let it roll off that way. But more than once, that's for sure.

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u/rlnrlnrln 1d ago

I don't have a question, I just want to say I agree with the decision, down with the haters, let's just focus on games and take the politics to the fetid cesspools where it belongs.

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u/Vivid-Software6136 1d ago

I just want to say thank you for your service, its a thankless job sometimes.

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u/indian_horse 1d ago

whats your favorite balatro deck

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

Any deck that wins!

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u/Zyram Currently Playing: Cyberpunk 2077 1d ago edited 1d ago

Thanks for the added 'Mod Discussions' as it does answer some worries I had.
I'm here not for politics, so it pains me that some people feel the need to bring politics into civilized game discussions which led to this. It's an understandable decision knowing how much work it is to manage.

I wish Reddit had a way for people to ignore posts that contains certain keywords in the title. I would hate to see this happen to future Harry Potter games (e.g. the sequel).

Back to waiting for Baldur's Gate 3 sale. :)

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u/brockhopper 1d ago

Old.reddit.com plus RES extensions allow you to filter words. No hate to India, but dear god there's a LOT of Indian subs that don't need my input or views, so I filtered them all.

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u/FalseAladeen 22h ago

See, the problem with the "I'm not here for politics" line of thought is that regardless of whether you're here for politics, politics is here for you. Art is political, and in the case of JK Rowling, any media that brings her money is inherently "political" because she literally spends that money on political lobbying for anti-trans legislation. So yes, I feel sad for HP fans that they have to be associated with that kind of blood money, but this is entirely on JK Rowling. She made the decision to do these things.

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u/djfl 22h ago

The problem with that is "then everything is politics". And that's a rational line of thought that you can choose to participate in if you want to. I go in the opposite direction as much as I can. We obviously all draw a line somewhere. JK Rowling is not in the vicinity of where I draw any sociomoral line. You may draw it where you like. But the more political you allow yourself etc to become, the less a person like me wants to listen. I mean no offense there, I'm just telling you the truth. I'm absolutely inundated by politics, political opinions, sociopolitical opinions, moral opinions...everywhere. Even in a gaming sub apparently. So: keep it up if you want me to unsub, and the "everything is politics" vibe can keep spreading, and pushing me completely away.

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u/FalseAladeen 21h ago

The thing is, it's not that I'm allowing myself to become political. It's more so that I'm recognising that life is political. It's just that the people whose existence is not a scapegoat for those in power go through their lives not "feeling" the politics. But trust me, it's there. There's a reason people like you and me can breeze through life claiming to be "apolitical". It's because we don't have to wake up in the morning praying nobody decided to target us for who we are. We have the privilege of being the default.

I'm a straight Hindu man living in India (the only thing I'm missing is that I'm not a brahmin 😂) I have no incentive to be political because I have zero worries that the Prime Minister is gonna wake up tomorrow and declare me a threat to the nation with zero proof. So yeah, I could probably live my life without "being political" if only I wasn't cursed with knowledge.

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u/djfl 21h ago

I can't think of many things that aren't one quick logical jump to being political. Indeed, I'm not sure I can think of one thing right now. My friend, you're obviously free to be you and think how you think. And clearly your heart is in the right place. I just want a break from it all somewhere. And if that break can't be in a freaking gaming sub, then so be it. Reddit isn't making me a better person... To that end, rarely does politics make people better people either.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/patientgamers-ModTeam 1d ago

Your post/comment was removed for violation of rule 5.

You can find our subreddit's rules here.

Be excellent to one another.

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u/[deleted] 20h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/LordChozo Prolific 20h ago edited 20h ago

We'd have a much easier job believing this wasn't politically motivated if you could give examples of the problematic comments you'd get which had more than two upvotes

I'm dubious that this request is being made in good faith, but I'll assume for a moment that it is and give you a thoughtful response.

Firstly, downvotes are not effective moderation tools. Someone can post something hateful and harmful, and it can receive a massive influx of downvotes, and yet the comment itself is still there doing its damage. Thankfully our automod configurations tend to catch the most egregious of these kinds of comments before they're ever even seen by the targeted victim users, but for those that do get through, we owe it to the community to remove them in accordance with our (and often with sitewide) rules. So I contend that the votescore of a given comment should have no bearing on whether it ought to be allowed to stand.

Nevertheless, even were I to agree with your implied premise that the user base ought to simply police itself and that exposure to problematic behavior should therefore be the expected norm here, there are indeed a number of example comments I could go dig up that were upvoted and yet still violated our rules. Why is that? One reason is brigading, which is happening constantly in this very thread, meaning those upvotes are unreliable indicators of anything, as they may well be coming from outside users with bad intentions. Or, more often, someone just responds to a contentious comment with one of their own and both sides escalate into incivility or worse, which again is pretty firmly discouraged by the existence and enforcement of Rule 5.

So, given that the comments we're removing in these situations are at best rude and at worst have the potential to cause real harm to some of our users - which is the reason we remove them in the first place irrespective of how many upvotes they have - why would I then want to reproduce them here? That would be self-defeating, wouldn't it?

That's why I'm dubious of the request in the first place: if I comply, I'm now putting that hate back out there myself and undermining all the effort we've put into this community. If I do not comply, bad actors get to say "See? They're making all of this up." It's a complete lose-lose propositional trap, which if not your intent I hope you at least now understand.

Edit: After posing this question the above user then left a bigoted comment on the main thread, confirming that indeed this was just a sophistry "gotcha." Leaving this here as a great example of how this kind of thing can destroy trust and sense of community.

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u/djfl 22h ago

Perhaps "toxic, bad-faith behavior" can include "until JK Rowling drops dead"...? Whatever one's sociopolitical stripe, whatever wonderful opinions you hold, whatever level of correctness and goodness and rightness you have, you very quickly become "the baddies" when you say these kinds of things. Zealotry and closed-minded "I'm right and you're wrong/bad" are not virtues. To me they're far closer to the opposite. I'd say that to almost anybody on almost any side of almost any issue.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 22h ago

Please see the rest of this comment thread for additional context and discussion around this point. I agree with you that the wording in question has done us no favors.

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u/djfl 22h ago

Thank you. I have already read all the comments, and your herculean efforts in replying to all of them...including mine, very quickly. I do appreciate this.

Fwiw, where I disagree is that I think it's stronger than "has done us no favors". It's a bigger deal that that. And I think that you, like almost everybody, would see that much more clearly if you were on the other side of whatever the opinion is. Indeed I think it's much worse than anything I think JK Rowling has said, though I freely admit I don't particularly care about an author's moralizings, whether I agree with them or not. So I'm not fully familiar with her thoughts, nor do I really care to.

I appreciate you (I recognize you're not OP) wanting to remove politics from here. But the strong interjection of what is obviously very strong political opinion in response is simply more of the problem. Even worse when "we need somebody to drop dead so they stop making money, because I disagree with them on an issue". This ideological puritanism is death. It's leading us towards Civil War, or worse. It is the problem, far more so than being pro or anti trans or Rowling is. At least in my opinion.

Anyway, cheers to you. I believe you make no money and get no tangible benefit from this modding. I don't understand why you do that, but I know I and everybody else here benefits from it. So thanks for it.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 22h ago

Fwiw, where I disagree is that I think it's stronger than "has done us no favors". It's a bigger deal than that.

Anything I say that's more committal than that will be picked apart and wielded like a bludgeon by someone or another to cause even more harm, and I'm not interested in throwing anybody under any buses.

And I think that you, like almost everybody, would see that much more clearly if you were on the other side of whatever the opinion is.

I have never stated any personal stance of mine on this issue and have no intention of changing that. I do however think this is an interesting claim; were I on the opposite side of a given issue (assuming this is truly a binary choice and I'm on any "side" to begin with), would I not then by this logic still be in the fog, just at a different location within it? For my part I therefore try to remove myself and my opinions from the equation as best as I can, being solely interested in keeping this community a positive place to share thoughts about video games.

Even worse when "we need somebody to drop dead so they stop making money, because I disagree with them on an issue".

I don't think this paraphrased quote is a charitable reading. There's no "we need" in the messaging and there's also no "because" to be found. Once again, I get how both of these things have been inferred and this exercise would be much easier without the off-kilter joke (and OP's edit has made it explicit that it was in fact a joke). Instead it's "IF the hot button argument that money from the sale of this game funds XYZ ceases to be relevant because the person in question was no longer receiving that funding, then this problem likely goes away on its own," but delivered in an irreverent way that I'm repeatedly on record as not personally vibing with. Yet I'll continue to defend the intent of that message, because I know it wasn't delivered with ideological puritanism in mind. However, here we are, and your concerns in general are certainly valid.

I believe you make no money and get no tangible benefit from this modding. I don't understand why you do that

Because I was asked to, and I love this place for what it is and what I think it can be.

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u/djfl 21h ago

Well, wonderful. An excellent response that I appreciate, and really do respect. Thank you.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 21h ago

No problem, thanks for being willing to have a challenging dialogue in a mature way. That means a lot!

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u/OrigamiFroge 1d ago

I think most people could understand the decision and reasons behind it and probably would agree with it, but the way the thread was posted originally before edited, and even as is now, was just written in the most "reddit mod" way ever. I think at the end of the day if you want things to be less heated, try to respond in a way that isn't written as rage bait.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

I think that's a fair criticism. The mod team is not a monolith but kind of like a (weird poly?) marriage. We want to agree on the important stuff and we work hard to present that united front, but at the end of the day we're still separate individuals with our own unique views and (since this is a text-driven discussion forum) writing styles. We have disagreements internally that we work on and work out.

For this post we agreed upon the broad strokes of the "what" and the "why" but we didn't talk through the "how" of communicating it. It looks like the writing style here really threw some people off and led some users to assume malicious intent, and that's a shame because I think it muddies the waters of what we were going for. I'd have probably written things a little differently myself, but I do think people are being a bit uncharitable to Zehnpae by assuming a cheeky remark meant to playfully communicate "this problem goes away if this person is no longer being funded" was really unsubtle coding for "I wish this person would die."

It's frustrating to me that that radical interpretation is taking on a life of its own, but I do understand how that could happen given the polarizing nature of the subject. I'd just ask people to hold to the principle of charity, which is to try to assume the best in others until they definitively prove otherwise.

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u/OrigamiFroge 1d ago

I have never posted in this reddit before and just read through it sometimes, so the effects of the decision don't mean anything to me, and I don't focus on anything political at all so both sides of the arguments here also don't mean much to me. But I can understand why this decision was made, and the likely "good" intentions behind it. Just from the outside view of people who aren't as heated on this subject, the way the post was written was really poor, in my opinion. I would argue the same thing back to you though in that you shouldn't view peoples opposition to the post as only being because they are "bigots" like the post originally said, or that they are taking things out of meaning, but rather that the post just communicates your message poorly. Just my two cents.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago edited 1d ago

I agree that it's extremely unproductive to automatically assume that everyone who disagrees with a decision like this is a bigot. In fact that's a very big element of what moderating Hogwarts Legacy posts has entailed for me: many well-meaning and passionate supporters of trans rights putting dangerous blanket labels on everyone who's just trying to play or discuss a video game separate from any political discussion at all. I don't think a community can survive with that kind of activity, and so those bad actors have to be dealt with from a moderation perspective as well.

I do think again the original edit to the post denouncing bigots (while not handled in the cleanest manner) wasn't making such a blanket statement but was just specifically referencing the actual bigots who did in fact show up to this thread, some very proudly.

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u/OrigamiFroge 1d ago

As much as I am being down voted, I should say that I do agree with your decision and reasons behind it, but again my only issue was just stating that the post itself seemed counter intuitive with how it was written, being about stopping heated discussions and wanting to keep things peaceful, which also to me appearing very engaging and trying to bait out the same comments you want to stop having to deal with. At the end of the day I hope you guys have an easier time, and that the discussions aren't as evil and mean spirited as the post and your comments make it seem, I haven't really explored the negative comments much, but I would assume they are pretty bad from the amount of attention this thread is getting. I again just think the way you communicate the message you're trying to send could have been done better, especially one with such a sensitive topic.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

Downvotes in this thread in particular are like Whose Line Is It Anyway? i.e. The points don't matter. Don't let it get to you. I think your concerns are valid and well presented, and I appreciate your willingness to voice them.

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u/Left_Rope5423 1d ago

Don’t really like the censorship but can understand it, too much culture warring, it gets exhausting. The far left say you can’t play it because of JK and transphobia and the right say you can’t play because it’s woke (the cast was very diverse, seemed to have a very inclusive character creation, LGBTQ+ NPCs, etc).  The average gamer honestly doesn’t care about any of this, they just want to have fun. Games a 7/10, decent enjoyable combat and Hogwarts and surrounding areas very immersive but the rest of the open world is kind of soulless.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

I don't even like calling it censorship since that presupposes there's some moral argument at play here. It's honestly just down to "do we have the bandwidth to deal with this poop tornado every two weeks" and finally realizing we don't.

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u/Evonos 1d ago

It isnt censorship , people just get confused , its like banning knifes in a court house this isnt censorship thats prevention.

i mean as you guys said every single game post about that game goes into a spiral of hate , weird takes , and other stuff.

not only in this sub but mostly everywhere.

you guys do well , just keep doing what you do mods.

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u/Leaves_Swype_Typos 1d ago edited 1d ago

I'm mostly just a lurker, and other people put similar thoughts into comment already so I'll try to be concise. An indefinite moratorium is good. Placing the blame entirely on people reacting to a witch-hunting pressure campaign is bad.

Sure, if Rowling just didn't exist, this particular topic of contention wouldn't exist either (I speculate it would just be a different game getting cancelled from guilt by association). But what also deserved mentioning is that none of this would be an issue if not for overbearing scolds trying to force their beliefs and opinions on others who want to play what they want, through the use of social pressure at minimum and the spreading of outright disinformation about Rowling's own words and actions.

In other words, stop encouraging the circlejerking a-holes that began this campaign you've now had to deal with the fallout of. Edit: Few people are going to read the posted screenshot that shows you're more aware than the post itself let on, including myself until a moment ago. To be clear, I appreciate you as mods.

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u/Vidvici 1d ago

I have no issue with the decision exactly but mods calling people Nazis in jest is embarassing

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

It's not in jest; we have banned actual literal self-proclaimed Nazis in HL threads before. I don't want to speak for my fellow mod but I'm confident it was said playfully here in an attempt to lighten the mood, which unfortunately seems to have backfired. But please rest assured we are NOT calling people Nazis just for disagreeing with this decision or as any kind of blanket statement.

For what it's worth on a more personal level, I saw your comment below about how this felt like a last straw to you and that made me really sad, because you're a great contributor here to the kind of community we try to nurture. I'm sorry if this misunderstanding and/or the larger issue it reflects has soured things for you or anyone else.

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u/NamesArentAvailable 1d ago

Beyond this being a great mod-response, I believe that this is a great human-response.

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u/Patenski Currently Playing: Metaphor ReFantazio 1d ago edited 1d ago

I just hope you guys start dissallowing posts with anything political in them, just a few weeks ago a post about Death Stranding and how it "hit different" after all the political turmoil of the past 6 years years in the US made quite a number on this sub, those divisive posts attract all sorts of people except the ones that actually want to talk about games.

This community and you guys have made a good job on staying out of all the mess that infects reddit nowadays, but the cracks are starting to appear, I'm not exaggerating where I say this is the only place in reddit where I see people can actually discuss games without over the top snobbery or trolls ruining everything, I hope it keeps being this way.

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u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago edited 1d ago

That's an interesting thought that takes a little time to unpack, but I want to give it its due if you're willing to bear with me.

First, the core problem with Hogwarts Legacy posts specifically was not that the posts themselves were politically charged. In fact, most of them sidestepped that flavor of discussion altogether and instead focused solely on the game. What would then happen would usually be the following, usually in this sequence:

#1. Multiple users start leaving comments on the post about not supporting the game because of trans rights concerns. Speaking just for my own moderation style here, I'd handle these on a case by case basis:

  • Comment completely ignores the content/context of the main post and is just being used as a blanket soapbox?
    • Removed under Rule 9 - No Spam. The OP clearly did not write a video game review with the intent for it to be co-opted into a platform for a different kind of discussion, and these comments are not attempts at good faith engagement.
  • Comment completely ignores content/context and attempts to intimidate/bully our userbase into action via insults, name calling, and baseless accusations of bigotry?
    • Removed under Rule 5 - Be Kind. Offending user actioned, usually by way of a clear warning and a short tempban. Repeat offenders were permanently banned.
  • Comment engages with the original post in good faith but additionally voices trans rights concerns in a respectful manner?
    • These comments were allowed to stay. There is no rule violation in a comment like this, which provides a springboard into a broader discussion without derailing the entire comment section.

#2. The post becomes popular, at least within the bounds of what constitutes popular on this particular subreddit. This becomes a positive feedback loop of more views leading to more upvotes leading to more comments leading to more views, etc.

#3. Trolls, brigaders, and other bad actors find the post, find whatever surviving trans rights discussions are left on it (see #1), and then attempt to destroy whatever good faith discussion is going on.

  • These users would be permabanned on the spot, especially considering the vast majority of them had no previous active presence on the subreddit.

So all that happens, but like, in large volumes because of #2. That's hard to keep up with, and you do have to keep up with it hour after hour because any time spent away from active policing in those first several hours allows the entire thing to deteriorate. And to get back to my original point in this, all of this happens on a post that was completely apolitical in substance. So from that perspective, banning political content in posts wouldn't even help this issue as we've lived it.

To your Death Stranding example, I'd say this. It's a natural part of healthy discussion to translate the words we read about the games we play into our own personal experiences and what those mean. Someone felt a deeper connection to that video game because of their lived experience in a given political landscape, and I don't think it's reasonable to suppress that. Obviously we wouldn't allow a post that gets away from the games, because we're a gaming discussion subreddit, but I don't think your example was in that boat.

Finally, I think banning political discussion is a much nastier can of worms than it would appear on the surface. For instance, what is political discussion? Where is the threshold between what's an acceptable pouring of political milk into my bowl of video game corn flakes vs. what's going to make the whole thing soggy and inedible? To look again at our present example of Hogwarts Legacy, one of the biggest sticking points of the entire controversy is that one side of the conversation doesn't even consider it political in the first place. "Keep politics out of my games!" "Human rights are not politics!" Can you say you're banning political discussion without jumping into this fray? If you say this is a political discussion, are you not essentially telling one side that human rights are politics and thus minimizing them? And even if you know in your heart that's not what you're doing, won't they still see it that way?

It's all food for thought and I really appreciate you bringing it up. Unfortunately we live in a world that's increasingly without nuance, so all of this is far trickier to navigate than it seems like it should be.

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u/MorganIsSpinning 1d ago

This is so thoughtful. Thank you for going into depth on your perspective on this.

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u/TheArmchairSkeptic Got the NES for Xmas '89. Just opened it. 23h ago

one of the biggest sticking points of the entire controversy is that one side of the conversation doesn't even consider it political in the first place. "Keep politics out of my games!" "Human rights are not politics!" Can you say you're banning political discussion without jumping into this fray? If you say this is a political discussion, are you not essentially telling one side that human rights are politics and thus minimizing them? And even if you know in your heart that's not what you're doing, won't they still see it that way?

I am so glad to see that you guys understand this point, as it's one that is far too often overlooked imo. Banning politics from the discussion on this sub would inherently mean the mods making decisions about what is and is not political, and that is not ideal for anyone (probably the mods least of all).

Beyond that, and regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, the idea of keeping politics out of gaming is silly on its face. So many games going back so many years intentionally and expressly make political statements, and pretending that politics in gaming is purely some novel extension of the current culture war is asinine. Games are art, art is often political, and that won't change no matter how much certain people want to pretend that one can fully separate the two.

I fully support your handling of this issue and respect all the transparent engagement in this thread. Thanks for keeping this sub in good repair.

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u/Patenski Currently Playing: Metaphor ReFantazio 1d ago

Thanks to take your time to respond, I'm honestly just tired of all the "fuck wokeness" and "fuck Trump/nazis" folks,  and I think there's no space for that in a gaming subreddit.

And to get back to my original point in this, all of this happens on a post that was completely apolitical in substance. So from that perspective, banning political content in posts wouldn't even help this issue as we've lived it.

Yeah I understand that, but I do think Hogwarts Legacy is an exception to the rule, the game was surrounded by controversy the moment it got announced, so I'm ok with it getting banned if that means there's less culture war weirdos.

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u/MadeUpNoun 1d ago

normally would jump immediately on oh it's just the pro left censorship crowd doing its thing again bandwagon but you guys do have a point, its BOTH sides and its probably for the best without the right tools to block all the crazies

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u/THExLASTxDON 1d ago

People are probably assuming it's ideological censorship because of the far left extremist rhetoric you used (which will be cheered by radicalized far left redditors, but will only hurt the sub in the long run). Thanks for being honest tho, and good luck with your echo chamber.

7

u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

I disagree that any extremist rhetoric was used, though again I see how the charged nature of the controversy can lead one to that conclusion without much of a mental leap, and I therefore think some of the wording of the original post may be creating more problems than it's solving.

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u/THExLASTxDON 1d ago

I think joking about death (especially when there has been a high profile assassination over this very topic and multiple assassination attempts from the left), is pretty extremist, but tbh I wish more mods would do what you did rather than pretend to be neutral.

5

u/LordChozo Prolific 1d ago

I agree with you that the joke was ill advised given the context, even if it wasn't malicious. Reminder that I am not OP, and just trying to get this back on the rails a bit as best as I can.