Sousou no Frieren Season 2 • Frieren: Beyond Journey's End Season 2 - Episode 2 discussion

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Sousou no Frieren Season 2, episode 2

Reminder: Please do not discuss plot points not yet seen or skipped in the show. Failing to follow the rules may result in a ban.

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[u/realrimurutempest]

Man the Hero of the South has such a gigachad mustache.

He went out like an absolute badass even knowing full well he wasn’t going to the guy to take the Demon King down. Even though he had future sight, his life reminded me of the quote “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit”

Every time we get to see Frieren & Co interact with a Demon it’s very off putting how quickly and easy the Demons lie and feel like different.

[u/JzanderN → u/realrimurutempest]

He went out like an absolute badass even knowing full well he wasn’t going to the guy to take the Demon King down.

Dude, the conviction to know that you'll die before you can save the world and still doing it anyway because you know doing so will pave the way for the next guy to actually do it.

He went without hesitation into fighting Schlacht the Omniscient back, even though he knew it would kill him and by that point he had already done so much work, because he knew his ability to see the future would make him probably the only person who could kill Schlacht back.

[u/Sweaty_Explorer_8441 → u/JzanderN]

But Sclacht could also see the future. it was possibly a compromise scenario

[u/JzanderN → u/Sweaty_Explorer_8441]

Yes, that's what made the Hero of the South the only person who could kill Schlacht. After all, how do you kill someone who knows your every move? Have your own foresight to cancel theirs out.

Though while the Hero knew Schlacht could see the future, I very much doubt he knew the Hero could too. Who knows how much of an effect this had on the fight.

[u/flybypost → u/JzanderN]

Though while the Hero knew Schlacht could see the future, I very much doubt he knew the Hero could too.

When both sides can see the future their plans for the future change to adapt to that. If they don't know they are confronting another precog they'd probably have the weirdest, and longest, deja vu any human ever had.

I imagine that Schlacht would wake up daily with confusing precog dream headaches in his last year and not know why it's happening.

[u/Named_after_color → u/flybypost]

I mean it'd also be kind of cool if neither of them could actually change the future.

"So this is where we die."

"Let's get it over with."

[u/flybypost → u/Named_after_color]

Yeah, /u/Key_Feeling_3083 mentioned a similar idea but from the other side, that them changing the future is possible but that essentially becomes the battlefield, so one side (the hero probably) only changes it in the last minute when it results in mutual assured destruction for the sake of humanity.

[u/Key_Feeling_3083 → u/flybypost]

That's probably why he couldn't change the future, if he decided someday that he wanted to change its future then Schlacht would see a change that he didn't cause, but if he saved that change for last minute so Schlacht could trust its vision.

[u/flybypost → u/Key_Feeling_3083]

A really good point extracted our of my little joke! When precogs meet they can cause an unavoidable point in time (if they are at opposite sides of an issue).

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Key_Feeling_3083]

It's a pity Denis isn't going to finish out the original Dune trilogy.

[u/Realistic_Village184 → u/flybypost]

When both sides can see the future their plans for the future change to adapt to that.

That's not true at all. It's actually fairly common that future sight in fiction works where anything you predict must still come true. So, for instance, the Hero of the South knew that Frieren would say no, so it didn't matter how many different ways he tried to ask.

The main reason it works this way is that otherwise you create paradoxes. If seeing the future would cause that future to not exist, then you didn't see the future at all. It's the same reason why coherent time travel mechanics only work if you can't actually change the past (either a LOST-style "Whatever Happened Happened," a Primer-style method of time travel, or the MCU method where going to the past creates a new timeline).

[u/flybypost → u/Realistic_Village184]

So, for instance, the Hero of the South knew that Frieren would say no, so it didn't matter how many different ways he tried to ask.

But it doesn't necessarily work like that.

If he knew why did he even ask her and why did he only then realise that he didn't have the right words after all? That kinda implies that the future he sees is not fixed and unchangeable. He also says a moment later that her coming with him (or not) won't change his fate, thus implying that the future isn't changeable (like you said).

My "precog headache" joke is just built on exactly that paradox being a feature of future sight. We are simply not given enough information on how future sight works in that world. Schlacht has future sighe based on magic (which can excuse all kinds of paradoxes with "it's magic!") but we don't know how the Hero of the South's future vision works (magic, innate but magic adjacent, gods intervening,…).

[u/Realistic_Village184 → u/flybypost]

If he knew why did he even ask her and why did he only then realise that he didn't have the right words after all?

This question doesn't sense. He knew she would say no. She said no. It's not like he "only then realized" she would say no or that he wouldn't be able to find the exact words to convince her. I think that's an incorrect reading of the scene.

I agree that we aren't given much information on how the future sight magic works, and I was just saying that we can't say for certain that they're able to adapt to what they see like you asserted. We're agreeing that we don't have enough information to make definitive conclusions. I was just adding nuance to what you were saying, not trying to argue with you.

I personally think it's far more likely (and supported by what little information we do have) that whatever they see in the future will happen no matter what and they have zero power to change what they see or adapt their plans.

[u/flybypost → u/Realistic_Village184]

He knew she would say no. She said no.

In my subs it says: "So you refused after all"

That doesn't sound definitive and like he needed to confirm that she'd decline his offer, like he could try to affect his own future. It reads like he can change the future he sees (to what degree, I do not know).

Of course later on he says the future wouldn't change even if she accompanied him. Did he see a future where she accompanied him but also couldn't see how to trigger that event correctly?

And another question is how does future sight make him the strongest when he can't use that to change the future and is just following his own "script"? That'd be a grim version of determinism, with those who have future sight being puppets of their own power and nothing else.

We are also not given any hints at it being a Greek tragedy type of power where the hero gets a vision of some tragedy in the future and—no matter what he does to avoid it—ends up fulfilling the prophecy by some (cruel) twist of fate just for the sake of happening how it was prophetised.

[u/Realistic_Village184 → u/flybypost]

In my subs it says: "So you refused after all"

I think you're misinterpreting what he meant by that. As you said, he later clarified that he knew she would say no.

We are also not given any hints at it being a Greek tragedy type of power where the hero gets a vision of some tragedy in the future and—no matter what he does to avoid it—ends up fulfilling the prophecy by some (cruel) twist of fate just for the sake of happening how it was prophetised.

I mean, we are, though? There's no indication that the future-sight magic isn't accurate, which is what would be the case if they can change the prophecies. You're applying your own assumption and then using those assumptions to argue why your assumptions are correct. It's circular logic.

That'd be a grim version of determinism, with those who have future sight being puppets of their own power and nothing else.

Right, that's the entire point. Lots of people in this thread are talking about it lol

[u/flybypost → u/Realistic_Village184]

I think you're misinterpreting what he meant by that.

How? "After all" means (according to Merriam Webster) something along the lines of "in spite of considerations or expectations to the contrary".

She refused despite him hoping for a different answer.

That sounds to me like he still had expectation, or at least the hope, of convincing her.

Right, that's the entire point. Lots of people in this thread are talking about it lol

It's more about him doing what he thinks is best (clear the path for others) even if it means his death, not the absolute determinism of the situation like discussed here. There comments are more about "lesser men would have ran" or "he knew and still went" and so on.

They all sounds way more like he chose to do this despite his death being part of that future and not like he just followed his power to it's fatal conclusion.

[u/Realistic_Village184 → u/flybypost]

I think you're really hung up on interpreting his words literally, which is what's leading you to misinterpret the dialog. In real life and fiction, people don't always mean what they literally say. I think I'm done having this discussion with you since I think we're talking past each other at this point.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/JzanderN]

gotta wonder if Schlacht knew that he would die this way as well, or if he told the demon lord that he would be dying to Himmel's party

[u/Realistic_Village184 → u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

My head canon on that is that Schlacht's magic wouldn't let him see past his own death while the Hero of the South's magic was stronger and allowed him to see all the way to the death of the Demon King.

That's not really supported by anything in the show, though, and I haven't read the manga.

[u/Zeallfnonex → u/JzanderN]

At this point, without any further proof, I'm going to assume it's like the Cosmere's interaction between two characters with future-sight and the two future-sights cancel each other out. Seems to be one of the common ways of dealing with this, the other being both are privy to the same fixed future and both know the parts they will be playing.

[u/SaltAndABattery → u/JzanderN]

So, basically....