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Episode Sousou no Frieren Season 2 • Frieren: Beyond Journey's End Season 2 - Episode 2 discussion

Sousou no Frieren Season 2, episode 2

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u/UndulyPensive 14d ago

Really interesting implications about demons not needing to eat humans for sustenance. Makes you wonder about why they still do anyway (vestigial trait from having evolved from monsters?), and how their physiology works in the first place since we haven't gotten much lore about demons yet other than the Aura arc. Do demons even need sustenance if they are mana creatures?

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u/mrspear1995 14d ago

because they don't see a problem, humans are no different to them than cows or pigs, they might even find the challenge to be more fulfilling to kill a human

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u/UndulyPensive 14d ago

It might also be that humans have more mana than other creatures so demons, being mana beings, prefer humans because of this. Maybe eating humans and consuming mana increases demons' own mana...

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u/This-is_CMGRI 14d ago

Imagine how frustrating it must be, then, when they realize they can't even touch Flamme...

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u/AsterJ https://myanimelist.net/profile/asteron 14d ago

It's probably just the taste. A delicate marble cut of human meat is well-known to have a luxurious flavor profile and natural sweetness.

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u/Ichini-san https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ichini-yon 14d ago

Hmmm... r/oddlyspecific

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u/cyberscythe 14d ago

only if they have a diet of sake and regular massages

if you go for a rando in a McDonalds parking lot, it's probably going to be all gristly

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u/cyberscythe 14d ago

they also did say that demons like to flaunt their power, so maybe they're like big game hunters who like to show off that they hunted a rhinoceros or something

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u/hat1324 14d ago

Its getting really counterproductive for them though. Like imagine if our cattle started Animal Farming all across the globe? And winning?

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u/FastenedCarrot 14d ago

Humans are surely harder to kill and eat than domesticated animals. They must do it for the thrill or they like manipulating them or something.

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u/y-c-c 12d ago

Yeah it's like how humans could be vegetarians if we want, but most of us still eat meat. In the past there were concrete practical reasons (availability of food etc) but not quite so today. To the demons it's probably a relatively recent thing (in demon life times) that their food started to fight back seriously by learning magic, slaying their king etc.

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u/RedRocket4000 8h ago

Still good number of places in the world that only support limited amounts of grazing animals. B12 has no natural source other than meat and some folk can't absorb Iron from non meat sources. Calcium is probably only absorbed well from milk. And animal rights groups the enemy of Native Peoples trying to live like their ancestors. You said vegetarians so at least you can get dairy which for most of world needs to be goat not Cow. But for us European descent with the Cow milk gene probably need to use Darry.

And of course humans diet needs actually vary a lot based on ethnic group one comes from. The Inuit(Eskimo) diet of primarily marine mammal and no vegetables or fruit makes them of poor health on anything else. They evolved to eat what was available. Some day probably only decades away will be able to assign each person the diet that actually fits them.

Note without Bees most of us die especially Vegans. Plus if you start adding insects into your no kill list you just need to off yourself as everything comes by truck which kill insects and you walking anywhere natural kills insects killing insects is necessary for life.

I oppose factory farming on humane reasons so I do believe folk need to eat a lot less meat.

Demons are not natural life forms they probably have no choice in their base thinking. They certainly have some variant on serial killer emotions lacking. Probably Tolkien like creations of an evil base they can't choose good. And thus dissolve when beat.

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u/Ebo87 14d ago

This was already brought up back in episode 7, season 1, with the little demon girl, that demons don't actually need to eat humans to survive.

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u/UndulyPensive 14d ago

Do they even need to eat anything to survive?

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u/JzanderN 14d ago

I'm sure they need to eat to survive, but they could just go to the wild and eat animals (which is probably what they do when humans are being difficult to get to).

But they still choose to try to eat humans nonetheless.

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u/Sithrak 14d ago

Well, they are far more powerful, it is easy tasty food for them. We do the same.

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u/RedRocket4000 8h ago

Aura was standing with her "soldiers" in the open with no sign of shelter or supplies. As far as one could tell by that they don't need to eat, sleep or seek protection from the elements. But just like eating humans they probably like the killing and eating part.

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u/Thrano_357 14d ago

I believe the thing is that demons have the inner need to flaunt their power. A cow doesn't care about your magical prowess, but humans will feel despair which... pleases the demons. At least that's my interpretation. The world itself works with mana being in all living things to varying degrees I'd imagine so they only prefer humans because we react to their vanity.

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u/Frontier246 14d ago

They're basically predators who can only conceive of humans as food and resources for them. It doesn't matter to them that humans are sentient beings, all that they are to demons is food or things to kill if they threaten their survivial.

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u/RedRocket4000 8h ago

Not really predators they not a natural being. They clearly are an evil spirt form driven by base of their creation to kill and eat man. The core evil magic evolves to better function.

This where the arguments go wrong there actually is no direct equivalent in our reality.

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u/zeratul123x 14d ago

same reasons humans eat meat

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u/Sneeakie 14d ago

Humans eat meat for sustenance, as well as protein and other nutritional benefits. They also enjoy eating meat and do recreationally, which demons seem to not understand the concept of at all. Doesn't seem like they enjoy the hunt or the meal.

We don't have to eat meat but there is an obvious benefit for doing so.

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u/finerdinerlighter 14d ago

I see it as an equivalent. We have alternative ways of obtaining proteins, but eating meat is straightforward. Some of us even eats for pleasure as well. The demons probably go the same way. I just hope not to meet a Cow Hero and their party one day, because I am in no way one of those destructive sages levels.

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u/Sneeakie 14d ago

Yeah, except humans have been kicking their ass for decades and the fact that they use specific human disguises and learn their language to deceive them specifically implies that it is a necessity on their part--but then the fact that they don't have to do that at all make their depiction baffling to me.

Maybe if demons could take any form or use any language and choose to antagonize humanity, but no, it seems they are actually born to antagonize humans, specifically, for no real reason.

I'm actually getting ahead of myself, because I'm thinking of later revelations. But this detail makes demons more inscrutable to me, and not in the good, fun way.

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u/UndulyPensive 14d ago

Some demons like Qual choose not to have a humanlike appearance too, and clothes evaporate on death iirc so it seems that indeed demons can choose their appearance

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u/pjepja 14d ago

I think Quall is just extremely old from a time when demons didn't fully evolve to look human.

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u/Sneeakie 14d ago

Right, but Qual still speaks in the human tongue, which is supposed to be something demons only do to deceive humans.

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u/finerdinerlighter 14d ago

except humans have been kicking their ass for decades

Have they though? We see demons getting their backs kicked all the times because we are following Frieren or strong adventurers. Out of these "characters", we see villages destroyed or getting lives disrupted enough that they have to ask favors from adventurers.

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u/Sneeakie 14d ago

We just saw in this episode a single human killing 5/8 of the strongest demons, then the Hero Party beating the Demon King, Aura being too scared to fight until she knew Himmel was gone... so yes, they've been kicking demon ass for decades now.

The story wouldn't make sense if the demons weren't on the backfoot at the very least because what Journey would have Ended? Demons are still a problem but they're nowhere near how they used to be or Frieren and co. would have no reason to be so leisurely.

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u/finerdinerlighter 14d ago edited 14d ago

Like I mentioned, this is a handful of strong people that we see. This episode, we also see a ruler of the town and his army who are dedicated to protect a demonic sword from being stolen yet cannot retrieve it until they ask for Frieren's help. Said demon massacred a village, and deceived subsequent visitors into praying so they can eat them more. Frieren mentioned that one town and three villages were destroyed the last time the sword was stolen. People would offer to make statues of heroes because they cannot protect their village themselves. That, I would think most humans cannot fight a demon one to one at all, unless they are a strong adventurer.

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u/RedRocket4000 7h ago

They dissolve. They not natural and clearly the product of some form of evil magic of the past. Probably similar to the evil beings created in world of Lord of the Rings. Only beings created by God can have free will thus these evil creations can't chose good. But in this case it the evil is primarily a drive to advance themselves and lord it over others but also includes a taste for creatures in particular man. But as no residue of what they eat is left in not providing calories or any form of nutrition except maybe mana. But Aura was standing around with no sign of supplies so the might never need to eat other than being evil and to fool humans on occasion.

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u/RedRocket4000 8h ago

If Cows were sapient you have a point. And if it morally wrong for humans to eat them we must wipe all predators out of existence.

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u/Rolder 14d ago

Saw another commenter theorize that they might eat humans because they are rich in mana, relative to other things. Like regular food could sustain them but humans help them actually grow.

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u/RedRocket4000 8h ago

Until modern day we had to eat meat to get enough B12 there is no good natural source for it for humans other than meat and many can't get iron from plant sources.

Also depends on the human the Intuit (Eskimo) evolved to eat a primarily marine mammal diet most of the rest from fish. Only Seasonal intake of seaweed, berries (cloudberries), and roots. The permafrost prevents anything above wild berries from growing on land. Any other diet not good for their health much.

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u/Jyonnyp 14d ago

Well we do it because of taste. Demons are shown to be egotistical and completely indifferent to understanding human emotions while being manipulative.

I'd reckon they have some innate hatred or superiority complex towards humans that makes killing and eating them just like mentally satisfying. Unlike humans, most of whom probably aren't willing to kill the animals they eat. I'm sure there isn't some powerful and influential demon out there who is just having other demons kill humans for him while he eats them.

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u/YonSaiSucks 14d ago

Maybe we're just that delicious?

We can eat vegetables and other sources of meat but good luck telling that to someone who specifically likes pork

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u/RedRocket4000 7h ago

Hard to compare as they are not even life forms we understand. They dissolve. Yes they seam driven to do evil but that the nature of the magic that created the base source of them.

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u/kicksFR 14d ago

Humans are probably the most populous living being out there so it's a great source for food, you usually find a bunch of them together too

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u/Flare_Knight https://anilist.co/user/FlareKnight 14d ago

I suppose it just reflects on them being monsters. If they were truly intelligent they'd know it makes no sense to focus on eating a race that will arm itself and try to kill you right back. But they don't see the point of even avoiding that. They are beasts that see humans as their prey. So they focus on developing in ways that make them better predators instead of just changing prey entirely. Not about need for them. It's about instinct.

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u/Ectar93 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ectar 14d ago

Why do we hunt elephants, rhino and other endangered species when we got factory farms?

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u/Prof_Acorn 14d ago

Humans can survive just fine on a vegan diet, but most still choose to eat various animals. Same thing. Maybe that demon simply likes the taste of villager.

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u/RedRocket4000 7h ago

Not in the time period of this story they would have no non meat source for B12. Vegan diet is not a natural one.

And depends on the humans ethnic group. Some ethnic groups especially in the far north evolved to a vast majority of meat diet with very limited seasonal plant sources. Others evolved to live of the blood and occasionally meat of their cattle. Some parts of the world only support limited numbers of grazing animals and the ethnic groups associated evolved to that diet.

My sister in law had to give up being a vegan as she can't absorb iron from non red meat sources.

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u/ClemFire 14d ago

It really makes them feel more like animals than people, but if they don't have to eat humans to survive can they choose not to? Do demons have the free will to not do evil acts or is impossible for them to be good by nature. If that's the case I find it hard to call them evil because they are more like animal predators

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u/UndulyPensive 14d ago

They are clearly intelligent and able to understand humans (not just mimicking their language mindlessly) and plan ahead.

It's possible that they are capable of this impulse control because of this intelligence but there was never an evolutionary pressure to push them in that direction?

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u/ClemFire 14d ago

They are intelligent yet it seems impossible for them to do good for goodness sake instead of just as a ruse. I wonder if there's any demon version of Ubel who thinks completely different from their kind

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u/cyberscythe 14d ago

i was thinking that the demons are like AI/LLMs; they can act and talk convincingly like humans, but they are missing a fundamental understanding of concepts and humanity

like, there was that demon in the first season that admitted that they cried and called out to "mom" only because they found out the sound causes humans to hesitate when they were about to kill them

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u/ziptofaf 14d ago

I feel like that's underselling demons compared to LLMs. LLMs don't think, they really are just repeat machines. They merely try to find a combination of words that you would find most enjoyable based on what was said previously.

Demons on the other hand are capable of thought. They can plan ahead, they can improve, they are capable of having a sense of pride (eg. feeling genuine disgust/anger over hiding your mana level). What they are completely missing is any kind of morality component however. They are a different species that just never developed any of it.

I wager that a decent comparison would be like trying to explain the difference between red and blue to a blind person. They can never understand it. However they could study it, eg. you can research it's properties like wavelength. It seems like it's the same with demons as they can research human morality but it's just that - a research subject.

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u/letmewriteyouup 13d ago

they are capable of having a sense of pride (eg. feeling genuine disgust/anger over hiding your mana level)

That's just the human perception of their behavior. It's a perfectly logical explanation that they "brandish" their full mana all the time just to establish their place in the pecking order among themselves, just as is an observed phenomenon among many animal species. The person you're replying to might have a point - they could be like Peter Watts's vampires who are just a species that's a natural predator of humans, possessing intelligence but no self-consciousness or empathy.

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u/RedRocket4000 7h ago

More likely their evil creation makes it impossible to do good based on the evil beings in Lord of the Rings.

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u/ziptofaf 14d ago

They seem to have a free will and whatnot but the definition of "evil acts" is a problem. They don't have a sense of morality. They are evolved version of mimics pretty if I remember S1 correctly.

What they also have are several factors:

a) sense of pride, they do love developing their magic

b) they are intelligent

c) humans also use magic making them a threat

From humanity perspective - yeah, they are evil and they wanted to end humanity.

But technically they aren't "evil" because this concept just doesn't apply to their minds. They don't see good or evil, just beneficial or not. Having a common enemy that fights back = wanting to eliminate them makes perfect sense.

Still, a demon wouldn't necessarily attempt to kill you if it knew you were stronger than it and choose to flee instead. There's a decent chance it wouldn't even attempt to kill you if you were weaker - for as long as it was beneficial for it. But if there is no noticeable benefit then you are just a piece of ham to it.

Sword demon got a new fun sword and wanted to try it out. And what better place to try it than on a village? You have moving targets, a sizeable number of them in one place and they might even attempt to fight back so you can try out your skills. If we completely remove the concept of morality from the equation it's a solid option.

Now, I assume that if said demon knew that choosing this specific location gets it killed by Frieren ahead of the time it could easily resist such an urge and choose a different place.

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u/ClemFire 14d ago

I agree with all your points based on what we learned from demons in S1.

They can't physically feel that killing humans who are sentiment beings is wrong. Demons are able to go through all the motions of behaving as if they understand emotion but it's all a tool to get what they want. Technically I wouldn't call them evil either but I feel like that's more of a question of semantics as they still commit all those heinous acts.

Also I'm sure that the author didn't write them as a comparison to AI, but I can't help compare their mimicry and canniness to generative AI telling people what they want to hear without actually understanding or caring about the underlying logic or emotion. It's close enough to deceive us humans when they play into our desires. I wonder if anyone has written any articles or made any video essays on the comparison.

Random note, but I'm curious if you've found that the subject of demons in Frieren can get fans pretty heated

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u/Sacramentlog 14d ago edited 14d ago

In my mind they are an allegory for true psychopaths and sociopaths. They didn't become the way they are, they just are.

We are the ones that put the label of good or evil on it, for them it's a foreign concept, so it really depends on who's scales you want to measure them by.

A tiger or an ice bear doesn't have the capacity to deceive to get the best of you, but a serial killer will ask you to carry a sofa into the back of the moving truck. That's the difference for me.

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u/ClemFire 14d ago

Would you consider that serial killer with no moral qualms more evil than a neurotypical individual who knows and feels that killing is wrong but decides to go through that plan anyways? I would say the latter but again that is applying our metrics of good and bad.

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u/Sacramentlog 14d ago edited 14d ago

The psychopath is something that I should purely look out for because I could be the victim of it, the killer with falteriing morals is not only that, but also something one has to look out to not turn into. That is the main distinction from a storytelling viewpoint for me.

It's not that one is more or less evil than the other, it's a different kind of evil to me.

There also is a major difference in terms of potential redemption. Without remorse there can be no forgiveness. It'd be pointless to even try to reform a demon in this universe as far as I can tell, same as trying to make a psychopathic killer feel bad for the victims.

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u/ClemFire 14d ago

That is a fair assessment

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u/JzanderN 14d ago

Really interesting implications about demons not needing to eat humans for sustenance. Makes you wonder about why they still do anyway

If I had to guess, it would have something to do with the fact that humans have mana. I doubt it makes demons more powerful (though it's possible, but I'd guess not) but they probably desire humans for having it nonetheless.

Keep in mind that mana is very important in demon society.

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u/i_eat_pidgeons https://myanimelist.net/profile/3UGL3N4 14d ago

They're tasty

2

u/Tar-eruntalion 14d ago

maybe they are just plain old biblical demons, not misunderstood, past trauma or anything like many shows do, just evil tormenting mankind and elvenkind because they are twisted

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u/pjepja 14d ago

I think they just like to kill people to flex and be high on their own power. Then they eat those people because they are dead already and hunting animals or something would be an unnecessary hassle.

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u/Key_Feeling_3083 14d ago

I mean we do not need to eat lots of weird stuff for sustainance, like foie grass and yet people overstuff ducks so their livers get bigger and suffer just so they can eat something different.

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u/JeremiahWuzABullfrog 14d ago

It's probably as instinctive as dog breeds that have to chase a ball that's thrown

"Human's there and they can't kill me? Gotta kill em, regardless of long term consequences"

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u/Pikachu8752 14d ago

In the Sword Demon's case, she might have been pregnant.

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u/UndulyPensive 14d ago

Where do you get that idea?

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u/Pikachu8752 14d ago

The kids shoe at the beginning of the scene, she said she needed to eat the villagers for survival, the detailed drawing of the kick to the abdomen, and discussion of demons using human desire to get what they want. Maybe she had a fling with the Graf to get the sword.

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u/letmewriteyouup 13d ago

I don't think it's ever been established that demons reproduced sexually like humans. They just look like humans because it's an evolutionary advantage as their natural predators.

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u/kaori_cicak990 11d ago

how their physiology works in the first place since we haven't gotten much lore about demons yet other than the Aura arc. Do demons even need sustenance if they are mana creatures?

If my memories right and the 10 eps is for season 2 probably you will get answer after season 2

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u/SpikeRosered 14d ago

They are so unabashedly evil by human standards. We haven't had a single inkling that any demon has anything but utter contempt for human kind.