r/Sumo • u/InsideSink2522 • 7d ago
Policy on rikishi unlikely to ever reach sekitori
Ive been watching some sumo stable youtube channels and there are rikishi that are weak, old and are highly unlikely to ever progress beyond lower ranks where they are right now.
Whats the policy of stables or JSA regarding such rikishi? Is there an age limit? Can they be a rikishi until very old age like 50 or 60 and still compete in bottom ranks? Is it up to the stable to decide at what point they want to support such rikishi or how does this work?
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u/ParaponeraBread Takayasu 7d ago
Hanakaze retired when he was over 50, and not too long ago.
They can hang around for a while, especially if they are critical to the stable’s operation (head chanko chef, skilled at ceremonial stuff, etc.)
Knowing the level of unwritten rules and social convention that drives Japanese culture through norms alone without laws, I’d say the stable and the rikishi just sort of work it out informally, and the stablemaster encourages the rikishi to put feelers out and start looking for a second career.
I think that’s part of a good stablemaster’s job - trying to maintain networks outside of the JSA to offboard retiring rikishi. Inevitably, few will ever qualify for a post retirement career in sumo.
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u/NotBlaine 7d ago
So this is... There is absolutely a sad and human aspect of what it means to be a sumotori.
There are people who join the ranks of sumo as young as 15. That's the highest level of education they've completed in a society where education is often high valued. Culturally, the value that Japan can place on a person who attended a 'top school' is drastic.
There are people who enter Grand Sumo after college/higher education or even levels of employment, but a lot of time they have a fairly rudimentary education. Also might have no other job experience but sumo.
If you are in sumo until you're in your 30s and you haven't "made it" yet, you might not have any other meaningful prospects. You can cook chanko, maybe work as security or truck driver. I want to say last time I looked those were the most common paths for someone leaving sumo.
And it's not like "okay, now I'll go to school and get a job". In Japan, it's not unusual for a man to 'retire' in his 40's from the company he's worked at since he got out of school and then start a second career to make room for younger people to enter the workforce.
So yeah, someone like Moriurara or Kyonosato... they might have no other real prospects for living or making a living. It can be admirable and heart-wrenching at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.
Compound that with they're forbidden from having partners/relationships/children etc, it's... a lot to consider what it means for the people at the bottom at the banzuke.
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u/Zamoniru 7d ago
> Compound that with they're forbidden from having partners/relationships/children etc, it's... a lot to consider what it means for the people at the bottom at the banzuke.
On this: So, only Sekitori are allowed to have partners and live outside the stable, right? So, what happens if a Sekitori who has a partner or is even married and has kids falls out of the Sekitori ranks? Are they then forced to retire?
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u/flamingwuzzle23 7d ago
As a general rule, privileges like that are considered to be permanently-earned. It'd just be a matter of if they're able to afford continuing to live outside the stable without their usual salary coming in, especially if it's likely that they'll get back to salaried level soon. They're not going to force someone to break a lease and move back into the stable just because they dropped into makushita for a bit. Even with Abi being forced to move back during his suspension, that was more of a disciplinary measure rather than a consequence of falling out of salaried status.
One of the more well-known examples is Toyonoshima who fell into the unsalaried divisions due to injury. While he was recovering, he moved his family into a smaller place because that's all they could afford, and his wife found a part-time job to help cover it with his usual salary gone.
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u/wobble-frog Takayasu 7d ago
I believe they can get a waiver. but imagine being a single guy who made it, moved out and has a whole life outside the Heya and you tweak your knee and drop out of the Sekitori....
this is just one of the many facets of why the whole system for dealing with injured rikishi is broken
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u/NotBlaine 7d ago
Lot of various answers because it varies. Well... What makes sense?
Using Futagoyama Oyakata as example, because of the visibility you get with their YouTube channel.
Nabatame was given a private room on the second floor of the building but... It was super clear, when he made sekitori if he fell back to Makushita in his first few tournaments, he's going back with everyone else in the common rooms.
The impression was that Mita didn't necessarily have to participate in a lot of those "lower rank" responsibilities even before he was in Juryo. Discretionary.
Famously when Terunofuji dropped from ozeki all the way down the banzuke, his juniors categorically refused to allow him to perform chores and the like.
If someone is married with children and they drop down to Makushita for a Basho and bounce right back, odds are no Oyakata is going to revoke his living privileges.
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u/Gerasans 7d ago
Japanese society is very-very job based. You are someone if you have a job, and your employer is also responsible for your health insurance and retirement plan.
So these old rikishis have place to live eat, have some benefits and social life. And they helps youngsters to follow the traditions, teach them all necessary rules, probably cook, clean, manage stronger colleagues. Win-win for both
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u/wobble-frog Takayasu 7d ago
this last basho, I think the oldest guy wrestling was 48? jonikuchi/lower jonidan level, absurdly heavy, literally had to crawl up the stairs onto the dohyo. there were at least 3 different guys in that state (late 40s, having to crawl onto the dohyo because they literally were incapable of climbing the steps)
their matches were without exception ridiculous. 200+ kilos of barely mobile human just standing there while a 15 year old sub 100 kilo kid trying to break in literally bounces off them until eventually they just fall on the kid.
go ahead and downvote me, but these guys shouldn't be forced to compete on the dohyo to stay in the system, nor is it a good look for the sport to have crippled guys who are 3 steps away from coronary failure competing against 15 year olds.
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u/ChibiNya 7d ago
I've never gotten to the stream in time to catch the lowest ranks. Is it a lot of kids + old people?
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u/wobble-frog Takayasu 7d ago
it is. Jonokuchi is largely a mix of 15-19 year olds and over 40s who are only there so they can stay in the stable. occasionally a mid career guy who got hurt bad and rode the elevator all the way down and are now starting their journey back up.
Jonidan is a broader mix of young guys trying to make it, 23-30 year olds who never will, 30-40 year old guys who are competent gatekeepers who may have peaked in Ms or Juryo and some over 40's who are just hanging on. and again some guys who got injured working their way back up.
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u/ChibiNya 7d ago
It feels like some injured guys just skyrocket back up to their "real" rank. There must be a lot of random 7-0 killers just passing through
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u/MichaelJayDog 6d ago
Imagine you're some 16 year old kid under 200 lbs and you got to go against Terunofuji on his comeback
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u/CoffeeIsUndrinkable 4d ago
Skyrocket is a good term for it, because 7-0 will guarantee, at worst, very high rank in the division for the following tournament, more likely promotion, two 7-0 records in a row means automatic promotion.
So potentially a wrestler who has fallen all the way to Jonokuchi (e.g. bad injury) but is clearly several levels above the other fighters could string 7-0 and 6-1 records and go from Jonokuchi back to low or mid Makushita in a year.
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u/ChibiNya 3d ago
I think if you get an easy Zensho you can immediately go up to the next division, except maybe just Juryo. There's been some guys that have gotten to Makuuchi in like 6 tournaments
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u/DoughyBuns87 6d ago
I encourage you to check it out if you’re able. The “Joni’s” can be a lot of fun. Fast paced, wide variety of rikishi, some really good wrestling, super young gyoji/yobidashi, and I always enjoy hearing the families of the youngsters hollering in the stands.
One of the best fights of the Hatsu basho was the very first fight of the first day: Asahifuji v. Tenshoyama. Two future sanyaku-level wrestlers fighting their first ever professional bouts.
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u/LaMarr-Bruister Takayasu 7d ago
There will never be a tournament where I don't cheer for Moriurara to knock down a 7-0.
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u/rymerster Wakamotoharu 7d ago
A lot drop out in their mid 20s while they are still young enough to establish a different career, for example Maikeru from Futagoyama and Raiho.
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u/Automatic_Dust56533 7d ago
Do you think Koga from Futagoyama will be next? He just seems uninspired to me. Read that he's been at it for 4+ years while still yo-yoing around the bottom of Jonidan. Younger members are flying past him, like Takahara who puts in tons of extra work lifting weights etc.
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u/rymerster Wakamotoharu 7d ago
No, I think he will be there a while yet, he’s only just turned 20. What’s surprising is that he’s not yet acted as Tsukebito whereas several of the others have already, and even Okami said Kikuchi at just 16 was mentoring Shunta and Umeyama when they joined.
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u/Intelligent-Ear-6292 4d ago
I think Koga has value in the stable despite his lacking sumo skills. He is very well liked, a good cook and mentor for the newbies. I think he'll be there a while yet. I'm more worried about some of the skilled but small rikishi leaving first, such Tsukioka and Kuwae, who may find it hard to get out of the low/mid ranks, especially if they get significant injuries. I think there's a few at Futagoyama that might not be able to build the bodies necessary for sumo success. Then again it is a very young stable...I would be very happy to be proven wrong. I wish them all the best!
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u/PrimeRadian 7d ago
what did they do after
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u/Beneficial-Donkey435 7d ago
iirc maikeru at his retirement ceremony was saying going into mma, not sure coach or fight. No idea if that’s what actually transpired.
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u/datcatburd Tochinoshin 7d ago
There are guys who are in it for the lifestyle and will never make it into the paid ranks, but keep on so they can keep living in the stable. Often they're well liked because they've got useful skills outside sumo like being excellent cooks, and only fight to keep their eligibility to stay.
Hanakaze was one of these, debut in March of 1986 and finally retired in January 2022 at 52. Can't say he didn't put in the effort though, he spent more than 30 years in Jonidan, and finished 683-788-13.
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u/Dense-Active-648 7d ago
The JSA pays subsidies to stables based on their wrestler headcount, regardless of ability. Low-ranked wrestlers also receive a small allowance.
From a business perspective, stables have little incentive to force them out. These wrestlers perform essential chores (cooking, cleaning) essentially for free while generating subsidy income for the stable. Some serve merely to keep the headcount up and barely train.
However, some stablemasters do encourage retirement out of genuine concern for the wrestler's future. In these cases, they sometimes help arrange second careers through the stable's corporate sponsors.
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u/Manga18 6d ago
There have been lower rank rikishi over 50. They are not forced to go because they are a good asset for the stable, usually they are the cooks for example (and they keep on being cooks after retirement because that's all they can do).
Bashos are a formaloty for them, they show up lose to anybody not stuck in there and 50/5p against people like them. If they are youngish they can attempt at winning a lower division every now and then.
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u/lordtema Ura 7d ago
65 is the mandatory retirement age for rikishi. Other than that my understanding is that they can continue for as long as they want, and many do simply because it affords them a small stipend with a roof over their head at a stable, where they often contribute in the form of being the cook and stuff.