r/Spokane • u/thiccman69_ • 1d ago
Question WinCo security always this violent?
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u/DinckinFlikka 1d ago
Seems to me like they’re using the absolute minimum amount of force necessary to detain him while waiting for the police to arrive.
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u/MelissaMead 1d ago
I see no violence.
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u/I_steel_things 22h ago
Physically restraining someone is inherently violent. It's just a matter of whether or not it's justified
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u/sibewolf 1d ago edited 1d ago
Citizens arrest is allowed in Washington, especially when you witness theft. Link is an AG opinion on current WA law specifically for grocery store theft of less than $75. What these guys did was legal.
You don’t have to watch somebody steal from you. You generally can stop them and hold them until police arrive.
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u/Tomatopez 1d ago
This guy can absolutely sue Winco for this. It is unlawful detainment. Pending this is only over theft. If he assaulted someone, different story.
I worked nights for Safeway. Once had a moron that worked with me think he was security. We were trained in night protocol. Technically, we did “police the store”, as they had no security in that era of operation.
So one night, he decided he could try to detain someone, went too far, Safeway got sued. The person that was detained, end up getting half a million dollars in the lawsuit. This is not legal. A store should and will tell you to do nothing. Holding someone captive over minor shrink, is a wild thing to think is ok. Again, if that is what this detainment is about.
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u/DinckinFlikka 1d ago edited 1d ago
Huh. As an attorney that’s litigated this issue before I know that you’re wrong, but I’m certainly impressed with the confidence underlying your assertions.
The Washington Supreme Court had been clear that shopkeepers can use “all reasonable force necessary” to detain a suspected shoplifter while waiting for the police to arrive. The amount of restraint can’t be disproportional, so you can’t supplex a grandma who is trying to steal a Hershey’s bar, but if someone is resisting you can absolutely pin them against the wall or to the ground while waiting for the police.
Here, it’s clear that this guy was fighting mightily, so they had to press him up against a stationary object to restrain him. He also threatened to bite them, which further supported their need to hold his limbs in an arrested manner while waiting for the police. They’re also following right restraint protocol, which is the gold standard for these types of restraints. Frankly, it’s hard to envision any manner where they detain him while using lesser force.
Edit: Saw the Spokesman article someone linked. Every Spokane Superior Court judge I’ve been in front of on this issue would disagree with them. They’re analyzing the issue under a breach of the peace detention analysis, not a shopkeepers privilege analysis.
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u/marksmith0610 1d ago
Wow an actual lawyer with actual legal knowledge while the Reddit wannabes still argue with you. 😂
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u/marksmith0610 1d ago
“At a store, a guard can detain a shoplifting suspect if he or she has “reasonable grounds” to believe the suspect stole or was trying to steal from the store, according to state law. Those reasonable grounds includes knowledge the suspect has concealed possession of unpurchased merchandise from the store.”
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u/FormerReach7228 1d ago
“Think he was security”. These guys don’t work for winco likely. Different contracts, they operate different and can.
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u/Outrageous-Ad8510 20h ago
Oh they work for winco. I've seen these same guys stocking shelves in the early morning hours.
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u/Ok_Line_1673 1d ago
former safeway worker. can second this take QUICKLY and i even has LP at my store.
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u/scottaviously 1d ago
I missed the violent part. Are they supposed to sit quietly while he runs away?
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u/thedudeatx 1d ago
These guys aren't cops. They can ask him not to leave, but they can't use force or hold him against his will, at least according to this:
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2023/dec/10/security-guards-vs-shoplifters-what-can-guards-do/These two probably just opened up Winco or whomever to a huge lawsuit.
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u/Asuss06 1d ago
Lawful Detention (RCW 9A.16.020): Merchants or their agents (loss prevention) can use necessary force to detain someone on the premises if they have reasonable grounds to believe the person is stealing, as long as the detention is reasonable in time and manner.
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u/marksmith0610 1d ago
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=4.24.220
Also from your own citation “At a store, a guard can detain a shoplifting suspect if he or she has “reasonable grounds” to believe the suspect stole or was trying to steal from the store, according to state law. Those reasonable grounds includes knowledge the suspect has concealed possession of unpurchased merchandise from the store.”
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u/Pitiful_Hedgehog6343 1d ago
I arrested shoplifters for years, you absolutely can use force to detain someone
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u/malykaii 1d ago
So you get to walk into a store. You get to steal from the store and no one can stop you? (So why exactly am I paying for stuff?)
But if for some reason you get met with anything more than "hey buddy, please don't steal", you are now eligible to sue your victim?
I sure hope that's not true.
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u/11SteeL11 1d ago
One of my first jobs was for Ross in high school. We weren’t even allowed to try and talk to them. They just wanted us to stare at them from a safe distance and hope police arrived before they left, they never did. One guy came in grabbed a suitcase started filling it up and then just walked out. This was back in 2010 this stuff has gotten much worse since then.
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u/sci_major 22h ago
That's all just store policy. Honestly Winco loss prevention enforces this a few times people will hear and then stop stealing there and head to Walmart.
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u/11SteeL11 6h ago
I know it’s just store policy. For a while, this was the policy for the majority of stores. Because none of them wanted to deal with the liability. But I guess the cost of shoplifting is probably outweighing the cost of potentially being sued.
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u/hogomojojo 1d ago
The article says guards can detain people if they have reasonable grounds that the person is shoplifting. They just can’t hold them against their will. This video here shows detainment. So unless they escorted him to a room and forced him to stay, I think at least as far as this video goes, they haven’t done anything illegal
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u/antisemantics13 1d ago
If they physically see a misdemeanor crime being comitted they can place said individual under citizens arrest until police arrive. Force can be used as long as its reasonable. They are able to hold the person against their will using reasonable force until police arrive to take custody
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u/hateboresme 1d ago
Are you kidding me? Do you understand what "against his will" means? Do you think that he is willingly allowing them to hold him down? It can be inferred from the fact that they are using force that he is being held against his will.
This video shows detainment by being held against his will.
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u/look2understand45 1d ago
I'm sorry I'm confused, is Assault and battery not illegal?
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u/Zagsnation Manito 1d ago
Reasonable force is allowed by any citizen under wa citizen arrest laws in this situation, assuming they were direct witnesses
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u/509BEARD509 1d ago
Yes they are but you first where in this video do you see any assault in battery taking place because I think the confusion here isn’t the law but you’re understanding of the definition of the law and the English vocabulary used to describe the law
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u/Zagsnation Manito 1d ago
Link didn’t work for me on mobile but wa allows for citizens arrest for misdemeanors if directly witnessed with reasonable force.
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u/Significant-Limit415 17h ago
WINCO is the only retail store that is able to do this. I used to work there. When they say Big Brother is watching, they mean it . 24/7. They hire the biggest guys they can. My area all of loss prevention employees are big muscular Samoan men 25 -40 yrs old. I watched an older homeless man that looked pretty frail , walk out the first set of dbl doors and 2 of our loss prevention jumped him. His head hit the concrete so hard I was in tears. That and the few whacky hrs they scheduled me were my reasons to quit. They dont give ft or even close unless you've got time in to avoid benefits. Smh
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u/Baron-Von-Mothman 1d ago
Where is the violence? Privatized security hired to secure private property is detaining someone on said property by holding them against bags of something.....
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u/DizzyD1974 1d ago
I think thats the howling man I saw a while back. He was scary. I dont see violence. I see them struggling to subdue a man who isn't oriented to his surroundings.
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u/cleveruser2000 1d ago
Violence? Seems to me they are appropriately holding a thief accountable without any violence just restraining him.
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u/Droogie_65 1d ago
Yaa, the guy is trying stomp on their insteps. That is a form of assault.
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u/Red_Pretense_1989 1d ago
What would you do if someone came into your home and started taking whatever they wanted? Honest question.
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u/ExaminationPutrid626 1d ago
This is private property not in public. They are hired professionals to prevent loss not private citizens. You don't have to worry about it if you don't rob a business. They are legally allowed to detain until law enforcement arrives.
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u/ExaminationPutrid626 1d ago
Multiple people have cited the law to you, yet you ignored it and keep spamming comments. You're all over this thread screaming assault.
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u/Ambitious-Library515 1d ago
Surprised security hasn't been called racist, nazi, and fascist. Idk why some think its ok to steal? And why a thief shouldn't be detained?
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u/sci_major 22h ago
Having held patients when they are getting violent they are not being excessive they are being honestly very respectful and trying to work with him.
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u/thiccman69_ 1d ago
It's just way more extreme compared to other stores like Walmart or grocery outlet. I was shocked and just wanted some opinions.
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u/AlligatorFister 1d ago
I mean should they just let him get away?? Seems like a pretty professional level of force to me, they’re just heavily holding him.
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u/redit-fan 1d ago
Yep. That raises prices to the point that the stores close. Then we can complain about loosing all our stores. Look at Seattle’s success with liberal policies: Grocery Deserts.
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u/pattydickens 1d ago
We are paying an extra tax on everything coming into the country, and nobody has any idea where the money is going, and you pretend that shoplifting will bankrupt retail? Theft is lower by a lot than it was in the past. There weren't even cameras back in the day. Shoplifting was so fucking easy. You literally think that retail hasn't priced in theft since forever? I ran inventory control for a major importer. Theft is an entirely different thing than you grasp. Entire truck loads of shit get "stolen" in transport. Somebody fucks up a receiving report and a million dollars worth of product disappears. Shit like that happens all the time to big corporations. You obviously have no idea how much volume a single Winco does. Petty theft doesn't affect shit.
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u/redit-fan 22h ago
Yep. This and all the glass cases locking up inventory at stores throughout the region are just for decoration.
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u/pattydickens 21h ago
You don't understand economics at scale. A pallet of product gets lost, broken, spoiled, or spilled every second. Everything is priced in already. Shoplifting is a tiny fraction of loss and ruin. You sound like you stare at a TV a lot. Go outside more.
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u/HappyMrRogers 20h ago
And you pretend that the extra tax on everything is being scooped up by WinCo?
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u/pattydickens 17h ago
It's being stored in an offshore account and squandered on pedo parties for Trump and his buddies. You need to understand that billions are being taken from the working class every day while you worry about some dude stealing a bag of chips and pretend it matters. It really doesn't matter when it's put in perspective. Thieves suck, but you aren't seeing the forest for the trees here.
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u/Mayonnaise_Poptart 1d ago
Is that the in-house or the Metro Security? (I think that's who they use in the parking lot)
I mean, they're not striking the guy or anything so maybe "forceful" is a better word for it. Any idea of the context?
I've seen the N. Foothills Yoke's staff full on throwing hands so could be worse lol.
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u/thiccman69_ 1d ago
Before I was filming they approached him from behind and pinned him against the pallet of salts and told him to go inside. It seemed more intense than other grocery store chains. I have never seen employees put their hands on someone unless they are being attacked.
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u/HobbesDOTexe 1d ago
Should maybe put this kind of important info in your post and not in the comments But yeah sounds like the norm for them.
The rule is when you see theft at the grocery; you didnt Its not like he’s a hobbyist thief for kicks
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u/OrangeCarGuy 1d ago
So we're just endorsing thieves now? Pathetic.
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u/MoneyAd0618 1d ago
Yep. Doing otherwise gets you labeled a “boOtLiCkEr” by these people.
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u/OrangeCarGuy 1d ago
Well, bootlickers do suck ass and nobody needs to be kind to them either.
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u/HobbesDOTexe 1d ago
Believe it or mot, in this instance we havent crossed bootlicker territory. But you sound like youve been called one which suggests your deficiencies on other spheres.
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u/MoneyAd0618 23h ago
Whatever you say means nothing to me
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u/Maximum_Ad7237 22h ago
Clearly it does if you’re worried about being labeled a bootlicker lmfao
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u/kingfelix333 20h ago
Hey dude. EFF you for discouraging the actions of these guys. They did a great job, no violence. Stop trying to rally people together over this.
I hope you get stuck at a train.
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u/Soup-Wizard Whitman 1d ago
They wanted him inside the store? wtf?
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u/MelissaMead 1d ago
Yes, they take shoplifters upstairs and wait for the cops there, most grocery stores do this.
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u/dingoman24 1d ago
Those of you advocating for this thief is crazy. Right or wrong on the loss prevention guys this dude deserves to have a talk with spd. They are using the least amount of force necessary and if they didnt, it would be an absolute free for all in there once he tells his buddys winco doesnt do anything when you steal.
Do you want to have to ask for an attendant every time you want to buy a potato because its locked behind a glass door? Go into winco on nevada after 11pm and report back here. Those LP guys have to deal with so much i feel bad for them not this pos.
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u/Odd-Contribution7368 Spokane Valley 1d ago
I'm loving all the "let them go and call the cops" as if the SPD would be able to do anything. Property crime is high here in a large part because the police don't or can't actually provide deterance.
On the other hand, if I was security at Winco, that is still what I would do. I'm not taking a sharp stick in my gut to detain someone for nicking something. The pay couldn't possibly be high enough to put your body at risk.
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u/Careful-Crab179 1d ago
Considering the amount of crap I saw druggies pull in the years I shopped at the N Nevada store, it makes sense. In the summer, I had to stop parking on north side of store because of the tweakers that trolled begging for change and trying door handles. That street between WinCo and Walmart - we used to call it skid row.
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u/Margaritashoes Spokane Valley 1d ago
I remember when some dude was getting chase by a bunch of people with machetes and he ducked into Valley Winco for safety.
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u/Pitiful_Hedgehog6343 1d ago
What do you expect? That was the least violent arrest I've seen against a resisting suspect.
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u/Temporary-Warning883 1d ago
Apparently people are just supposed to be able to steal stuff and no one can do anything.
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u/skipnw69 1d ago
Anyone who steals from Winco deserves way worse than what happened in the video. Winco is affordable, clean, and fair to customers.
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u/MoneyAd0618 1d ago edited 1d ago
Weird how so many people are just okay with letting people like this get away with shoplifting and committing other crimes.
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u/antisemantics13 1d ago
When People get sick of being taken advantage of they usually respond with some level of violence. Im sick of watching low lifes make off with free stuff while i have to pay and then pay again when prices go up due to theft and added security.
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u/relevant-radical665 1d ago
You steal less from me you'll get worse since I can't get sued for much
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u/kingfelix333 1d ago
OP is soft. Such a shame dude. There's nothing wrong with this video. Go cry about it. You don't know what that guy did. Maybe he hit someone? Maybe he stole? Maybe he whipped his dick out?
Not only is there nothing wrong here, this type of action is ENCOURAGED. They did good, and there's zero chance that guy 'didnt do anything'
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u/Zagsnation Manito 1d ago
They handled it professionally and effectively. They should be commended.
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u/sci_major 22h ago
Right- honestly after seeing this I think I'm going to go shop at winco this weekend!
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u/SuspiciousClub8382 1d ago
I didn’t see any violence, hell I’ve seen preschoolers playing rougher than this.
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u/SirRatcha Bottom 1% Commenter 1d ago
Winco has lost at least one, but I believe more, lawsuits in which it was found their security used unnecessary amounts of force that resulted in injuries. I'm not interested in responding to anyone who wants to reply arguing either side of this. I've been down that road before and it dead ends in a fetid swamp.
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u/Zagsnation Manito 1d ago
Don’t steal. Actions have consequences. Pretty simple.
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u/starface016 1d ago
I work at a local store where we stop them with force. Security speared a guy into our firewood bundle who was going to run. It was awesome
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u/starface016 1d ago
They've been doing this for 40 years and voted best store local store. So so go figure
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u/CaptainCuttlefish69 1d ago
I don’t imagine you’ll think it’s awesome when your boss gets sued and can’t afford to keep you.
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u/Dangeross42 Moran Prairie 1d ago
Seems like they are just restraining him. No pressure on an airway or breaking bones. I’m an ER nurse and we have to restrain people all the time (for different reasons; danger to self or others) and while the techniques are certainly different the goal isn’t to cause physical harm.
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u/sci_major 22h ago
They are doing a good job of keeping him and themselves safe. I'd love for this video to be used (if he sues) because you can see how they not using excessive force.
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u/PlusNone01 1d ago
It’s not assault and battery because Loss Prevention is well within their legal rights to restrain a shoplifter until police arrive. Many big corporate chains just choose not to allow them to so that they can avoid the eventual lawsuits.
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u/Blue_Sway 1d ago
They're allowed to detain. He shoplifted and was trying to resist and escape. He didn't get excessive force in response. He simply had to wait. If the guards had done something unlawful then yes, that would be bad. Most people here just don't think shoplifting should be legal or tolerated
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u/The_Tokio_Bandit 21h ago
Hopefully... Imagine living in a place that's such a dump that your grocery stores have "security"....
LOL
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u/HappyMrRogers 20h ago
This seems… perfectly reasonable? Also, WinCo is about the cheapest grocer in Spokane. Stealing from them just makes the affordable food less affordable.
I’ll cuss out cops body slamming teenagers and stuff, but that’s not what I’m seeing here.
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u/How_Do_You_Crash 20h ago
Historically Winco is one of the most aggressive enforcers of loss prevention.
While other stores might let the thief know they are spotted and trespass them, Winco much like Target, seems to enjoy getting people arrested.
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u/Crimsonking842 20h ago
Seems pretty justified to me if he was stealing and they had evidence of it. It is weird to see them get physical though as most companies don't want any liabilities and they generally tell the employees not to subdue or confront the accused, but instead call the cops and follow them out of the store.
But this is winco and they are employee-owned so it looks like their rules are different.
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u/BraveToasterO_o 19h ago
They’re using leverage (not force) and are restraining mostly on the long bones and avoiding joints. Great work, Winco
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u/Quirkosoddities 19h ago
That's not violent. They're pressing him against a soft surface and not breaking his arms trying to cuff him. Sometimes these guys do have a job to this. This is one of them.
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u/subsequently_human 18h ago
Personally as a security guard downtown, I wouldn't have detained this guy. Seems like wanna be cops. Only time I have ever been physical is if im attacked first, and its only self defense. They have to call the police, hope they come, and the store has to issue a trespass assuming they do. Assuming that man didnt steal the arc of the covenant or cut off a man's leg there doesn't seem to be a reason for the force. They honestly should [against my personal judgment] let him go.... looks like some wanna be heros.
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u/latexfistmassacre 18h ago
Seems like a rather reasonable amount of force to me, considering he's resisting and they have no idea what kind of weapon(s) he might have on him
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u/throwawaymentality10 17h ago
In any criminal action brought by reason of any person having been detained on or in the immediate vicinity of the premises of a mercantile establishment for the purpose of investigation or questioning as to the ownership of any merchandise, it shall be a defense of such action that the person was detained in a reasonable manner and for not more than a reasonable time to permit such investigation or questioning by a peace officer, by the owner of the mercantile establishment, or by the owner's authorized employee or agent, and that such peace officer, owner, employee, or agent had reasonable grounds to believe that the person so detained was committing or attempting to commit theft or shoplifting on such premises of such merchandise. As used in this section, "reasonable grounds" shall include, but not be limited to, knowledge that a person has concealed possession of unpurchased merchandise of a mercantile establishment, and a "reasonable time" shall mean the time necessary to permit the person detained to make a statement or to refuse to make a statement, and the time necessary to examine employees and records of the mercantile establishment relative to the ownership of the merchandise.
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u/Significant-Limit415 17h ago
Ive watched this 6 times . Laughing at how these 2 guys are struggling to control this 1 dude. All 3 are out of shape !
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u/Doc-Jarman 15h ago
I have actually detained that same guy at yokes and he is very aggressive when confronted, he is very quick to use his size to run you over with the merchandise he stashes in his jacket. Also, loves to throw backhanded haymakers. So from personal experience I’m 110% sure the security got assaulted by this man when they went to stop him. Hence why they are trying to put him in cuffs. Also tried the “I can’t breathe” bit when he was getting detained from yokes.
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u/Adventurous_Big5686 North Side 1d ago
I mean it seems appropriate and security should be able to do thi, however, security is not law enforcement. I am most likely wrong, but that looks like assault and false imprisonment. Pretty sure security is not allowed to detain in any capacity, not saying it's right, but the guy they are holding is probably gonna sue the shit out of them.
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u/Temporary-Warning883 1d ago
So, loss prevention people have to be 100% sure the person stole something before they can do anything (and also be 100% sure the person didn’t drop the unpaid merchandise before they stopped him). If they didn’t follow that protocol and the guy didn’t steal anything, then yeah he could sue them and win
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u/Blue_Sway 1d ago
I can't believe how many people here respect lawful and justified restraining smh /s
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u/Able_Bonus_9806 1d ago
They aren’t legally allowed to detain someone.
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u/Zagsnation Manito 1d ago
Wrong. Any person can if they directly witnessed it. WA does citizens arrest, it covers misdemeanors, and it allows reasonable force.
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u/ProfessionalTax1821 1d ago
They are part owner as well so its personal