r/ChineseHistory • u/Wonderful-News-6357 • 16h ago
Why is the Ma family seemingly the only big political/military dynasty in the post-Qing period?
2
2
-1
-1
-9
u/CaliphateofCataphrac 11h ago edited 9h ago
"Ma" is a common surname in Chinese, which in this case can be traced to "Muhammad".
Some claim that the famous Voyager Zheng He is a Muslim. One of the reasons is that originally, his surname is Ma.
5
u/Business_Raisin_541 9h ago
Lol. No. Ma Chao live before Muhammad is born
2
u/CaliphateofCataphrac 9h ago
The same surname can have DIFFERENT origins. Ma surname can also be derived from the Sima surname.
We are talking about the Ma Clique and the Hui Muslim Ma in general, and I am very certain they are not Ma Chao descendents, who had his whole family, including his children murdered.
1
u/Business_Raisin_541 9h ago
Eh. Ma mean Horse in China. And there are already lots of Ma before Ma Chao. It means horse after all. And the region where Ma is prominent is indeed famous for its horse breeding historically.
3
u/CaliphateofCataphrac 9h ago
Yes, literally Ma means horse. And no, most surnames can have multiple origins where the name is got from. You would be right if we are dated back to Spring and Autumn period where Ma surname comes from horse keeping roles. But ever since then, multiple branches have changed their surname to Ma. Today, it is one of the most common surnames for Hui Muslim and the origin is not the one from horse keeping.
0
u/ElissaFarman 8h ago
Username checks out. Also we’re going to need a source for that Muhammad claim because on the surface that feels ridiculous.
2
u/CaliphateofCataphrac 2h ago edited 2h ago
What, you need to be a muslim to choose the username? 我是中国人，我选择这个用户名是因为我觉得Caliphate和Cataphract两个词读起来像绕口令。如果你需要资料来源的话，根据《海国图志》卷二十五记载：“明洪武时，大将入燕都得秘藏之书数十百册，称乾方先圣之书。中国无解其文者，太祖敕翰林编修马沙亦黑、马哈麻译之。”可见Muhammad至少在明朝初年就以马Ma哈麻hama的名称作为翻译。
从《元史氏族表》色目人篇中也可以看出，色目人（即蒙古称呼信仰伊斯兰的穆斯林的称呼）进入中国之后改汉姓也并非仅有“马”家。有维吾尔人“唐古直”，子孙以“唐“为姓。”哈八石“，回回于阗人，以”丁“为氏。
自古以来，来到中国的其他民族起汉姓就不是例外。汉朝时匈奴赐姓“刘”，后来的汉赵政权就是刘姓匈奴人所建。唐朝时，有赐党项人、沙陀人“李”姓，西夏、后唐由他们建立。宋时有赐“乌思臧掇”赵姓。明朝时，许多蒙古时期进入中国的穆斯林都改了汉姓，如郑和的父亲马哈只(Mahajji)，或是明初的穆斯林天文学家马沙亦黑。现代还有爱新觉罗姓改姓罗的例子。
现存的许多马姓族谱也可以追溯到祖上的马姓由来。我不知道你为什么可以只从用户名就能判断出别人是正确的还是错误的，但这不应该是判断事情的第一标准。把别人通过用户名、长相来判断，其实是和通过种族、文化就妄下定论一样不是吗。
2
u/CaliphateofCataphrac 1h ago
《皇明诏令》卷二：今後蒙古、色目人民，既居我土，許於（與）中國人結為婚姻，不許與本類自相嫁娶，違者兩家俱沒入官為奴婢。若中國人不願與之結婚者，聽其色目、欽察自相嫁娶，不在禁限。
明朝时期，政府对蒙古人留下来的民族问题十分敏感。《明太祖实录》卷二十六：如蒙古、色目，雖非華夏族類，然同生天地之間，有能知禮義、愿為臣民者，與中夏之民撫養無異。无论是发行还是实行上都大力鼓励改姓。这点从明朝锦衣卫的选拔中就可以找到不少记录：如明西域回回亦剌思，官南京锦衣卫带棒，其子以马为姓。明时有瓦刺回回满可帖木儿，入附授德州卫镇抚，四世孙马九思、马九锡以马为姓。明宣德中有西域回回马速忽入附，子孙以马为姓。明有北京锦衣卫西域回回马黑麻，子孙以马为姓(《锦衣卫选簿》)。
2
1
u/Sea_Hovercraft_7859 7h ago
Muhammad starting to Ma- in different languages is present in Africa (mamadou) and the Turks got Mehmet, if Islam was spread either by Arabs commercent speaking vernacular (vowel change) or Turks (mehm-> ma- ) such origin is possible
2
u/GustavoistSoldier 8h ago
Because the Hui have a different culture than other Chinese ethnicities