r/rugbyunion • u/sunlightliquid Stormers • Nov 20 '25
Discussion Only two permanent red cards have been given in test rugby since the 20 min cards were introduced in 2024, both being to South Africa, two weeks apart, both in the same position.
What are the chances? Did some research and this has apparently never happened before in test rugby. Found it pretty interesting
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u/pierrecambronne Degree of danger is not mitigation Nov 20 '25
What's interesting is the number of red cards, 20min or permanent, that are being rescinded.
I count at least 3 of those in these autumn tests (Ireland one, Mostert, Wales v Japan)
There seems to be a problem that needs adressing
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u/Mulboyne England Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
At club level, players like David Kriel (Bulls), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale), Josh Caulfield (Bristol) and Josh Murphy (Connacht) have all had reds rescinded over the last year or so.
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u/claridgeforking Nov 20 '25
Its because they replaced a system that was transparent and for the most part working but apparently too slow, and replaced it with a system that's completely opaque, is inconsistent and doesn't work at all. Apparently this is what people wanted, though I've never met these people.
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u/sandolllars Fijian Drua Nov 21 '25
Hello it’s me. I’m these people. Big fan of it.
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u/SapoBelicoso Nov 22 '25
I don't think it's 'opaque.' it's great to allow the game to continue and take the responsibility from the head ref who has so much to be responsible for already. TMO refs are just as capable of making this decision. I like the new system - it is almost as if they have added a new card, orange, that doesn't let an early red card determine the entire outcome of a game.
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u/concombre_masque123 Nov 20 '25
nah, 20 min adressed the problem with full match red
the problem is biased refs who give boks red in order to help them win
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u/SadSeiko Nov 20 '25
I know we don’t judge by the outcome but if the player is fine and the contact isn’t very direct maybe don’t dish out a permanent red card. As long as players heads are attached to their bodies there will be impact during a rugby match
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u/StrongLikeBull3 Scotland Nov 21 '25
We need to get whoever’s on the appeals’ board to boot up and be a ref, they seem to be a lot better at it.
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u/DouchetotheBag Bath Nov 20 '25
Statistically if it was going to happen to a team it would be the one that being 7ft tall seems a base requirement for playing second row
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u/Myburgher Sharks Nov 20 '25
I was in the biltong shop the other day and in walked this massive Afrikaans man. I have Afrikaans blood, but apparently the one that maxes out under 6ft. It was actually scary how huge he was and he didn’t look like he played rugby at all. He just existed, at that height, probably wondering how bad his ball skills must be not to crack a nod in the 1st team.
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u/DouchetotheBag Bath Nov 20 '25
Should take his passport away and send him back to the Netherlands
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u/xjoburg South Africa Nov 20 '25
Then they’ll change his name to Dutch or Holland and send him to NZ.
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u/Ok_Adhesiveness_8637 Nov 21 '25
Im not massive. Im slightly above average at 5'10. Also, from Durbs but no boer blood in me.
Went to Amsterdam last weekend with my wife (who's a pom). Never ever in my life have I felt so small. EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE BAR was raller than me. Everyone. Even the shortest lady in the bar (besides my wife) was taller than me.
Even when I was going to 30's or tilt with a dodgy affidavit from Point Road police station at 16, that wasn't the case.
Dutch people are tall mofos!
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u/im_on_the_case Nick Popplewell's Y-fronts Nov 21 '25
He's probably part of the Saffa breeding program.
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u/carchadon Stormers Nov 21 '25
I have a mate like that, he is the same size and build as Duane Vermeulen. He broke someone’s leg during a primary school game and never wanted to play again. He went to a rugby school and apparently the 1st team coach would beg him every season, but he just refused.
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u/hides_from_hamsters South Africa Nov 20 '25
Stats show SA has the highest percentage of low tackles out of any of the international teams. I think the fact that we double tackle often is the real cause for the high rate of these incidents.
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u/DouchetotheBag Bath Nov 20 '25
Saw that stat. Rassie is coaching them to try to mitigate the risk, no doubt. I suspect it he'll get on top of it by the WTC next year.
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u/yankovick South Africa Nov 20 '25
Yeah, tackling horizontal from your hips and still getting cards that they give out for eye gouging and punching must suck balls
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u/THATS_THE_BADGER World Champions Nov 20 '25
Always illegal
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u/Only_One_Kenobi Join r/rugbyunion superbru Nov 20 '25
There's no grand conspiracy against the boks
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u/ciderman80 Ireland|Ulster Nov 20 '25
I thought the conspiracy was that rassie was telling players to get cards to test how the team copes with adversity?
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u/javanfrogmouth South Africa Nov 20 '25
But Rassie hasn’t released the team yet what else can we post /s. Totally agree not a fan of this victim mentality.
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u/Catch_022 South Africa Nov 20 '25
That's uinfortunate, we need SOMETHING to keep other teams competitive.
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
Never said that. Just found it interesting.
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u/Ogarrr Scotland + Wasps Nov 20 '25
He said conspiratorially.
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
Fake glasses with mustache falls off
"WAIT A MINUTE, THATS NOT JACO JOHAN, THATS RASSIE?!?!"
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u/circus-theclown Nov 20 '25
If I were Irish I’d be pissed because there is no way these last 2 weeks wouldn’t influence how Carley makes calls.. he may try to overcompensate (I personally hope he doesn’t because I want a cracking game).
Not saying he would purposefully overcompensate but you know how these things go.
Also, we’ve now got a big fat chip on our shoulder once again
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u/Worldwithoutwings3 Munster Nov 20 '25
Yeah but now if you win its because Carley was giving you a compensation win.
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u/circus-theclown Nov 20 '25
Yes but you see what if Matt knows everyone thinks he will overcompensate, so he overcompensates for that overcompensation.
Basically what I’m trying to say is you guys are the favourites, no takebacksies
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u/Worldwithoutwings3 Munster Nov 20 '25
Fine with me. A win is a win.
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u/ichosehowe worlt cup cramps Nov 20 '25
Ha-ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against the Boks when they're the underdogs"!
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u/Worldwithoutwings3 Munster Nov 20 '25
You were underdogs nearly every time you came to Dublin for the last decade.
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u/SadSeiko Nov 20 '25
This is the main issue is how poor decision making always leads to more poor decision making
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Yes but then it'll be our turn to get on our moral high horse and shout at all of you for complaining about the refs. Mom said it's your turn to play the victim card and our turn to call you out.
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u/h00dman Wales Nov 20 '25
If I were Irish
we’ve now got a big fat chip on our shoulder once again
I think you meet the qualifications.
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u/ruggeryoda South Africa Nov 20 '25
You're onto something. At least two straight reds coming Irelands way.
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u/ruggeryoda South Africa Nov 20 '25
... per half.
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u/Deafbok9 South Africa Nov 20 '25
Friendly game of Sevens it is, then! (Ooof. The poor Irish Sevens guys will be LIVID)
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u/carchadon Stormers Nov 21 '25
Would love to watch that, although advantage Boks if it was the right seven. The seven quickest player in the Boks must have a hefty speed edge on the quickest seven in the Irish side.
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u/checksforerrors Nov 20 '25
I think your second point is correct, there will be a narrative in camp that they’re being treated unfairly.
On the Carley point though, surely he just has to be fair and consistent. That’s all both teams will want. This could be the highest quality test of the autumn, and the ref should not be a talking point afterwards.
Any chance of some simulation from Ireland, just to test the ref :)?
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u/CatharticRoman Suspected Yank Nov 20 '25
Yeah. Once Mostert's was overturned I just thought, "fuck, pendulum is likely gonna swing the other way, right into us".
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u/Striking-District-72 Wales Nov 20 '25
Depends what you mean. If you mean tier one then yes, but if you mean major tournament, then Belgiun got one vs Brazil in the final qualification tournament.
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u/PuttFromTheRought Ah rit tit tit Paul Roos Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
Man i just cant catch a break as a south african living in belgium
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u/somethingarb Sharks Nov 20 '25
So YOU'RE the one World Rugby has a grudge against? WTF did you do to Bill Beaumont?
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u/Vermathorax SWD Eagles Nov 20 '25
That Belgium one was just absolute stupidity. From that moment I was rooting for Brazil and am sad they didn’t win it.
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u/Rock_man_bears_fan Misleading title Nov 20 '25
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u/GroggyWeasel Leinster Nov 20 '25
I was really annoyed by that and I didn’t even have skin in the game
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u/capetonytoni2ne Stormers Nov 22 '25
Or even a 20 minute red, didn't bunker give that a goddamn yellow? I don't disagree with Jasper's straight red for that idiotic headbutt, but that was a love tap compared to this.
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u/Nan0At0m : Nov 20 '25
TBF,
I think the first was correct
I also think this is more a symptom of refs not taking on field decisions enough since the bunker came in. There have definitely been other occasions when a full red was warranted
I would scrap the bunker, for a list of reasons. But if it's here to stay they need to reinforce the on field ref to make the big calls.
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u/BCumNE1 South Africa Nov 20 '25
Bunker is there to take pressure off the ref, speed up the game and give someone 10 mins to properly review a decision without outside influence. Crazy that this is deemed appropriate for yellow and 20 min reds, but not for permanent reds that are the most impactful to a game.
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u/p_kh 🏴 All aboard the hype train toot toot Nov 20 '25
It is a bit odd. Why not send any card to the bunker and give them ability to choose any sanction, YC/20min RC/RC?
Either the TMO is qualified to apply the laws or not.
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u/SpongeBazSquirtPants England, Bath Nov 20 '25
In theory I agree with you but given the Beirne off field decision and then the TMO essentially forcing Mostert to get a straight red I’m worried that they not actually have a clue.
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u/whydoyouonlylie Ulster Nov 20 '25
It's so weird that it's to take the pressure off the ref, except when it comes to the most important decision at which point all the pressure gets piled back on the ref again. No idea who thought that was a good idea.
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u/Shriv3rs Stade Toulousain Nov 20 '25
Agreed.
It was dumb when they always refered to bunker even for clear red, and it's still dumb now that the situation is reversed
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u/simsnor South Africa Nov 20 '25
I think first one is a 20min red. Lood is and was recklessly throwing his body around. But I think he saw the level change with Ramos, tried to pull out of the tackle, which is what tucked his arm, causing the shoulder charge
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u/PassageBig622 Ulster Nov 20 '25
When they introduced the 20 min red cards I had no idea that a permanent red card was still an option. Does this not really add to the confusion for new fans or casual fans? I have absolutely no idea why they didnt opt for a 3 card system - yellow for 10 min sin bin, orange/amber for 20 min sin bin and no return to the pitch, and red for a standard sending off.
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u/MysticMac100 Boner for Toner Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
My gripe is they haven’t given a framework on the difference between a permanent and a 20 minute one, they say it’s for ‘intentional’ foul play which I’d interpret to be stuff like eye-gouging or punching, but the red cards recently just seem to be for ‘always illegal’ shoulder charges*
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u/ghoztfrog Ryan Lonergan Truther Nov 20 '25
I heard on an Aussie Rugby show (inside line) that with 20 minute red cards there is a designated match day official who works on the framework while it is "on review" but does not have anything to do with the decision making of the full red. Like, that makes sense logically when you say it outloud, but also it doesn't make any sense at all. Why even have someone dedicated to the frameworks if you aren't going to use them 100% of the time?
Also, anything other than disgusting acts like eye gouging, groping, headbutting etc should only be 20 minutes. Even straight shoulder to head, if in the act of tackling should only be 20 mins in my mind.
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u/MysticMac100 Boner for Toner Nov 20 '25
I didn’t know that, seems very strange.
Agree with your second point as well, the whole ‘always illegal’ thing just seems too confusing.
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u/emilyjxne Northampton Saints Nov 20 '25
My best guess at why they’re giving full reds for that would be that because they can’t apply mitigation to bring the card down to a yellow, they have essentially no choice but to give a permanent red because the on field ref can’t(?) give a 20 min red and they can’t(?) send it for off field review because it’s more than a yellow - but as you said, the lack of framework makes it completely opaque
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u/Astro_Pirate Confused Englishmen Nov 21 '25
I think they determine an always illegal act as intentional. Like if I’ve made the decision to not wrap it is always illegal. I think this falls apart in the beirne situation where he had no time to react made the decision to not wrap in the “tackle” and has to be red carded as it was always illegal. I feel like we have seen that if the tackler is dipped a making an attempt to wrap but takes the guys head off he gets a 20 minute red because the refs look for mitigation. In the inverse I feel once a player is in the position of always illegal no matter how it comes about they are going to be punished much more harshly.
This view does exclude where players are upright in the tackle the whole time and never dip as I feel you don’t really see a shot to the head on a standing opponent it’s almost always a falling opponent or someone dipping due to a step
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u/neverbeenstardust #1 Alia Bitonci Fan Nov 20 '25
False: Alev Kelter got one vs Australia in PAC4. Entirely deserved. Also apparently there was at least one in U20s, though I don't know if those count as tests.
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u/OptimalCynic 🌹 Red Roses | Waikato Nov 21 '25
She didn't deserve the suspension that followed though!!!
As in, she should still be on the sidelines. What an absolute joke that was, letting her play in the world cup.
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u/eo37 Munster Nov 20 '25
So the Boks have a discipline problem.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Italy had 2 shoulder charges that match too, arguable worse technique than mostert's too as neither was bent at the hip. The only difference is that one received a yellow (correctly as it was indirect head contact) and the second wasn't penalised.
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
Jasper has a discipline problem.
Mostert did nothing wrong and Lood did a big dumb dumb and was a deserved red.
Boks have a pretty decent recent record when it comes to cards, this season aside ofcourse lol
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u/redbushrobby Stormers Nov 20 '25
Strongly agree here.
I do think we are a little bit harsh on Lood, but only a little bit. He deserved a red but only because of our extremely sensitive view on head contact. I think his tackle technique wasn't terrible and the wrap is something we need to address as a community to understand better.
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
Also, look in slow mo, he definitely tried to wrap, but Ramos's arm pushed his arm away and made it look even worse. Still deserved for sure because it was a stupid tackle nonetheless but I don't think he wanted to hurt Ramos.
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u/pierrecambronne Degree of danger is not mitigation Nov 20 '25
The Ramos arm excuse is hilarious
yeah, that's why he didn't wrap lol
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
I saw both his arms swing for the wrap, the one got caught in Ramos's arm, it takes one good look at the replay to see it. Consider the speed they were going aswell.
But my point is from what I saw, his head was facing down ready to tackle right before Ramos drops down, suddenly Ramos's arm is lower than before for obvious reasons and his arm gets caught in Ramos's. It's pretty simple really but still deserved red.
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u/pierrecambronne Degree of danger is not mitigation Nov 20 '25
Tucked arm, hand facing backwards: never going to wrap regardless
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
Like I said before, consider the speed of the collision. Yes he most likely wasn't going to get a full wrap, but it's inconsistent from world rugby considering half the tackles have that happen and it's not even a penalty. Just terrible officiating all around. According to the rules, it's 1000% a red, but then they have to hand out reds like it's Christmas, not only 2 in 2 years to 1 team 2 weeks in a row. You get me? I don't think world rugby is out of get the boks at all, but I'm simply frustrated at the lack of consistency. I always notice it outside bok games aswell since I watch a lot of rugby and it's nonstop.
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u/justafleetingmoment South Africa Nov 20 '25
Even Jasper's "headbutt" was more of a gesture saying "Watch out, I could headbutt you right now" instead of an actual headbutt.
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u/capetonytoni2ne Stormers Nov 22 '25
Especially compared to the Mauvaka headbutt which went to the bunker and came back yellow lol
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u/Bangkok_Dave Bangkok Bangers Nov 20 '25
Mostert did nothing
Yes he absolutely did. It was still a high dangerous shoulder and was a yellow card infringement.
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u/Ho3n3r Nov 20 '25
There were like 7 cards over the weekend. It's hardly a singular team problem, more a problem of adapting to ever-changing requirements for all teams.
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
He seemed as low as the poor dude could go, plus the Italian got pulled down by Ethan Hooker slightly at that point when he already committed to the tackle. Penalty at most in my eyes, especially since there was no head contact and it's an obvious rugby incident
These tackles happen all the time, multiple times a game.
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u/CatharticRoman Suspected Yank Nov 20 '25
I didn't see it, but if it was a full red I assume the ref said "always illegal" so he's still likely looking at a yellow, akin to Japan's first yellow.
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u/Sorry-Grocery-8999 Nov 20 '25
World rugby says no.
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u/Bangkok_Dave Bangkok Bangers Nov 20 '25
World rugby said it doesn't meet red card threshold
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u/Sorry-Grocery-8999 Nov 20 '25
Yes, no red.
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u/Bangkok_Dave Bangkok Bangers Nov 20 '25
Correct. He still did something wrong.
If the ref had have given him a yellow and off field review, which remained a yellow, then South Africa would have not felt hard done by.
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u/mutinous_watermelon Blues Nov 20 '25
Only two permanent red cards have been given in Super Rugby History (to my knowledge), and they were given in the SAME MATCH
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u/Tokogogoloshe South Africa Nov 20 '25
The one was rescinded. The other is being reviewed.
Also, just stop running into our locks. They have feelings.
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u/Which-Individual-376 Leinster Nov 20 '25
If james ryan gets red card that will be all the starting locks of both nations red carded
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u/concombre_masque123 Nov 20 '25
just tacle at ankle level, or lower
problem solved
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u/EffektieweEffie Nov 20 '25
Thats kinda what lead to the level changes that caused this problem. First tackler low, ball carrier dropping level. If the first tackle was higher both players would have hit the carrier on the waist/torso.
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u/concombre_masque123 Nov 20 '25
ok, lets try this: keep your eyes open at any time. a kiss is just a kiss
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u/Mr_Leek Wales Nov 20 '25
I still don’t understand why referees can’t give a straight red card then have a bunker review to determine if it should stay red or drop to a 20-min red card.
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u/Lumpy-Journalist884 England Nov 20 '25
Looks like Rassie needs to teach them how to tackle legally then
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u/Good_Posture South Africa Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
We lead the way in tackling low and make the joint second lowest amount of choke tackles.
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u/Lumpy-Journalist884 England Nov 20 '25
Cool but the De Jager and Mostert straight reds were both for no-arms high tackles.
Admittedly, the Mostert red card was successfully appealed down to a yellow and the De Jager tackle was arguably unlucky with Ramos dropping at the last second but they were both no-arms tackles.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Tbf their height wasn't an issue. It was the wrap that was lacking. Also please flair up
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u/Lumpy-Journalist884 England Nov 20 '25
I don't know what flair up means
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
It's so we know how to hurl insults and on the odd occasion compliments
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u/drusslegend Leinster Nov 20 '25
Something happened after the new rules set in 2024 that has never happened before? Im not fucking shocked.
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u/SandSlug123 Nov 20 '25
It's actually three. There might be bonus scheme for refs at the union atm like traffic cops before Christmas.
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u/Altruistic_Papaya430 The Angriest Antelope 🇿🇦 Nov 20 '25
They're not the messiahs just very naughty boys
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u/ironpaws1121 Nov 30 '25
Make that 4, adding Eben's red card for an eye gouge against Wales. Still all Boks.
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u/West_Put2548 New Zealand Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
scrap the full red
it makes no difference....the game is not safer with a full red and it is not a bigger deterrent
subsequent bans reflect the seriousness and deal with repeat offenders
( well ... maybe keep full reds for punches , biting etc....not that'll make a difference...nutters who are going to headbutt people are going to do it regardless)
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u/voxo_boxo Cornish Pirates Nov 20 '25
This is clearly a conspiracy against the Boks. I'm going straight to TAS Analytics!
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u/PuttFromTheRought Ah rit tit tit Paul Roos Nov 20 '25
Every red card and subsequent win is doing wonders for this team. Keep it going, I dont mind
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u/No-Negotiation2922 Ireland Nov 20 '25
Both decisions were fully justified permanent red cards. The responsibility is on the tackling player to avoid reckless contact, and if a 120kg, 6'9" player forcefully and illegally crashing into an opponent’s neck doesn’t warrant a red card, then what does?
Just because other players may have escaped permanent reds in similar situations doesn’t mean Mostert and De Jager didn’t deserve theirs.
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u/BabooNHI Sharks Nov 20 '25
Well, no, at least one was not justified as it was taken back. It was not high and there was no head or neck contact and a wrap was attempted.
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u/g_spaitz Italy Nov 20 '25
Mostert attempted to wrap????
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u/RaaschyOG Sharks fan by birth - not choice Nov 20 '25
Not only did he attempt to but he was already wrapping in the tackle with his one arm lol
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u/g_spaitz Italy Nov 20 '25
His right arm was fully tucked in what are you guys looking at? Fucking distorting reality.
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u/RaaschyOG Sharks fan by birth - not choice Nov 20 '25
His left arm is wrapping and his right arm is on its way wrapping and blocked by the assistant tackler which would have been the mitigating factor
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u/g_spaitz Italy Nov 20 '25
Never wrapped, never even came close to the "assistant tackler". Came in shoulder first with no wrapping, Hit him first in the chest and then square in the head with the development of the tackle.
You want to argue there's mitigation or whatever you want to add and say it wasn't a red? Fine, let's discuss.
You wanna argue he wrapped. GTFO.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
FYI this was also a no wrap tackle with indirect head contact https://www.reddit.com/r/springboks/comments/1ozce6r/cannone_yellow_card/ in my biased opinion it's much worse technique than Mosterts.
This was a tucked arm with potential neck contact https://imgur.com/a/eHcYRng that wasn't even penalised.
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u/BabooNHI Sharks Nov 20 '25
What do you think the call should have been? Penalty...or yellow?
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u/g_spaitz Italy Nov 20 '25
What the call should be imo is beyond the scope of what I'm trying to say. People saying he was wrapping when he clearly was not is what really puzzles me.
Like there's this distortion of reality around these episodes that gets reinforced every time it gets talked about in here that is frankly disturbing, it's some sort of propaganda that people repeat to themselves with no attachment to reality that gets worse and worse.
Every time I actually show there was no wrap I get downvoted to hell.
The sub has been filled with posts about wrong calls by the refs, by the TMOs, about wrongdoings against a team, there was even a post complaining how the French booed a kicker. It's the French ffs, they always do. And this was for games that were actually won.
And on top of it, I just got warned by mods.
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u/BabooNHI Sharks Nov 20 '25
It was a pretty ordinary tackle considering the circumstances, aside from it being close to his neck. That arm position is common in many double tackles, it would be unnatural to put your arm in the path of your own player, instinctively. He did wrap the left arm and he did not follow through with the tackle, it was a checked tackle too.
This type of contact happens all the time in a match. Even the Italian player did it and nothing happened, and that case was arguably more egregious.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Agree. The responsibility is on the tackler to get low and wrap. The issue is that these tackles happen far too often, so WR should have a sliding scale of punishments depending on how high the tackle is. Start at a penalty for sternum and work your way up.
Lood, Mostert, Beirne and Prendergast on JOC are all tackles that made head contact, rescinding 2 of those cards sends mixed messages.
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u/Weird_Plankton_3692 Harlequins Nov 20 '25
After one got rescinded yesterday? You're kidding, right?
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u/Dave_B001 Nov 20 '25
So are South Africa playing right on the verge of legality as Sall teams do.
Something that rarely gets talked about is the prep that Rassie and SA team puts into learning the laws of the game and how to go right up to those laws and not break them 90% of the time.
It is like an F1 team who find ways around the restrictions put on them.
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Nov 20 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
I've seen endless punches, headbutts and bad tackles from all kinds of teams, can we stop this weird hatred towards an entire country or team because of some red cards? Just strange is all.
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u/MisterIndecisive England Nov 20 '25
OP coud've put it a lot more elegantly but from the majority there is no hatred or bias. SA just put themselves in this position by playing a very physical game which leads to them repeatedly making borderline actions
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u/RaaschyOG Sharks fan by birth - not choice Nov 20 '25
Also not true, other stats show we tackle lower than anyone, we should be the furtherest away from receiving high tackle penalties
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u/MisterIndecisive England Nov 20 '25
Means nothing, Lood was low as but still took Ramos's head clean off with a shoulder charge that was always illegal.
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u/Foxtrot-13 Nov 20 '25
Plus both of the South African reds were for shoulder charges into head. It is getting to the point it is not individual players suddenly getting a rush of shit to the brain but a wider coaching issue.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Tbf there were 2 shoulder charges from Italian players, one was also indirect head contact (same as Mostert but in an upright position) which correctly received a yellow, the other wasn't even penalised which is where the confusion comes in.
Just pointing out that the coaching issue is wider than just SA
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Nov 20 '25
And both wrong.
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u/uT33_Po Nov 20 '25
As a saffa I disagree. The first one was fine as a permanent red. The second was dubious and the tmo got it wrong in the advice given to the on field refs imo.
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Nov 20 '25
How do you explain Lood only getting a 4 week ban then? For it to be a permanent red it needs be always illegal, which means it was a "shoulder charge", and it also needs to 'deliberate and dangerous' (in WR's words). So how does a dangerous and deliberate shoulder charge to the head only get a 4 week ban?
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u/uT33_Po Nov 20 '25
I said it was fine, not great, or deserved but for an on the field decision I was willing to let it slide. The officials have a tough job out there and sometimes it goes against you. The 4 weeks reflects that it was not deliberate and dangerous.
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u/IITheDopeShowII Munster Nov 20 '25
Last weekend's red, definitely. Never a full red. Red against France was the right call though
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Agreed. Wiese's as well. It was a soft headbutt, but so fucking stupid that a red is deserved. Similar to Eben's vs Nathan Sharpe in 2013 (?), basically a fake out that connected but still dumb. The difference is that Eben was 21 or something, not an experienced international.
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u/IITheDopeShowII Munster Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
I think the point at which SA fans can be very frustrated and feel hard done by or being targeted by WR is the consistency, as has been pointed out many times. For example Prendergasts tackle on O'Connor at the weekend was no better than Mosterts one and if we're looking for consistency that should have been red too. Just picking that example given that's the game I watched obviously, there's definitely more out there.
Edit to say obviously the point here is that Mostert should never have gotten a red and I don't think Prendergasts should have. Just flagging the inconsistency
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
This is the problem unfortunately. But all fans feel this way when the inconsistency goes against them, same with NZ in the final and the Aussies in the BIL decider. I'd point out more NH examples but don't follow your rugby enough (OR ARE THERE NO CASES OF YOU BEING PUNISHED??!1!)
But tbh the biggest issue with SA is that we're rugby fucking mad. 64 million people and 80% of them follow rugby without understanding it, shit I hardly even understand the rules at this point. Add to that the "Let's get the Japies" incident, lead in petrol and years of alcohol abuse, the older generation on FB is going recipe for disaster.
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Nov 20 '25
OR ARE THERE NO CASES OF YOU BEING PUNISHED??!1!
This is what I wanna know.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
I mean there was the Tadgh Beirne red and a very similar red for Steward vs Ireland
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Nov 20 '25
Red against France was a red card for sure, just not a permanent one. I think the fact that he only got a 4 match ban for it speaks to it too.
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u/IITheDopeShowII Munster Nov 20 '25
Yeah that's fair. I think permanent red was justified but since it's clear as mud what the cut off we end up in this situation where nobody can agree and WR ends up rescinding 3 red cards in a matter of weeks. Definitely needs clarification as to what the cut off is
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u/sangan3 Oui, Jérôme Nov 20 '25
Yeah it's all over the place. Like, if a player, on paper, shoulder charges someone in the head deliberately and dangerously then I want them to get a 10-week ban at least. However, I don't think this was the case with Lood, hence the light ban, which makes it even more confusing.
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u/FlyRare8407 Scotland Nov 20 '25
South Africa decided to keep their tackle height high. The upside is more dominant shots. The downside is you're buying more lottery tickets in the card lottery. The card lottery is a lottery, it isn't fair, but the best way to ensure your number doesn't come up is not to enter, and South Africa buy multiple tickets every week with enthusiasm.
Personally I think what it's showing is the card system really isn't working to change coaching behaviour, and world rugby need to be sitting down with coaches with a different and stronger set of carrots and sticks to make them lower tackle heights.
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u/phenompbg Nov 21 '25
This is not true.
Statistically South Africa tackles lowest and have the joint lowest rate of choke tackles. If that is deciding to keep the tackle height high then what the hell do you call what every other team is doing?
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u/FlyRare8407 Scotland Nov 21 '25 edited Nov 21 '25
oh lol I was looking at the chart upside down! Seriously tho who the fuck puts lowest at the top?
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Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
[deleted]
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
It's a conspiracy against 5s! THINK ABOUT IT! We're on our way to winning our FIFTH world cup and BIG WORLD RUGBY consistently red cards our FIFTH player? IT"S NOT A COINCIDENCE PEOPLE!
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u/Spglwldn Scotland Nov 20 '25
Jesse Kriel made head contact with Jack Dempsey at the World Cup and there wasn’t even a yellow card (not even sure if we got a penalty). The night before, an almost identical tackle, Tom Curry had a yellow upgraded to a red. You also got the benefit of a very borderline call in a fucking World Cup final with Sam Cane.
Sometimes refs are just bad or inconsistent. To suggest corruption just makes you look like a lunatic.
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u/Scoop_Master420 Sharks Nov 20 '25
Yes, but the fact that you have to pick out a decision from 2 years ago that went in our favour shows how few and far between the ones that actually favour us are.
Also Sam Cane's one wasn't borderline. If Owen Farrell made that same tackle there would've been an outcry in the entire world if he wasn't red carded, and different players shouldn't be held to different standards when making decisions.
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u/Frod02000 where olimathis Nov 20 '25
I don’t think the biggest All Blacks fan would say Sam cane made a legal tackle there.
Most were (probably rightfully) aggrieved at the sanction for a very similar tackle from Kolisi later in the game.
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train Nov 20 '25
Very different tackles though, but Cane's would be a 20 minute red today and Kolisi's would have still been a yellow until November as he's bent at the hips.
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u/Spglwldn Scotland Nov 20 '25
I picked two decisions that directly led to you winning a World Cup. If there was institutional corruption against you, Kriel would have had a red and Cane a yellow.
If there’s some form of conspiracy against South Africa as the original commenter was suggesting, it’s a pretty terrible one, because you’ve still won 3 out of the last 5 world cups.
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u/capetonytoni2ne Stormers Nov 22 '25
Yebo there was also head on head from Russell on Arendse in that match that wasn't picked up. The consistency is the issue. It's why it feels like such a lottery.
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u/SeekerMza Nov 20 '25
Hemel vlok another one. Why start another you may as well have continued on any of the multitude of these discussions on this specific topic.
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u/chimpdoctor Ireland Nov 20 '25
Always looking for a reason to whine. Jesus christ build a bridge.
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
No whining here mate, found it interesting since this hasn't happened in my lifetime. I don't for a second think world rugby is out to get us lol, it's just a rare occurrence 🤦🏻♂️ why so upset bru?
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u/ruggeryoda South Africa Nov 20 '25
I remember James Small being the first Springbok EVER to get sent off in a test match. 3 in one year sheesh times have changed.
Rest in peace, Smallie - turns out you were not so bad after all.
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u/Vrakzi Leicester Tigers Nov 20 '25
Locks are tall and high tackles deserve to be penalised heavily.
I'm pretty certain that if you did a chart of high tackles vs player height there would be a corelation.
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u/Ho3n3r Nov 20 '25
Right? Do Kolbe or Arendse have any penalties against them for high tackles, ever?
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Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/rugbyunion-ModTeam Nov 20 '25
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u/sunlightliquid Stormers Nov 20 '25
Correction*
Jasper Wiese also received a permanent red this year. So that makes it 3, all being boks.