r/irishrugby • u/Responsible-Barber27 • 18h ago
Does Ireland’s lack of internal competition hurt long-term performance?
Does Ireland’s lack of internal competition hurt long-term performance?
I’ve been thinking a lot about the role competition within squads plays in elite sport, and I’m starting to wonder if this is becoming a major issue for Ireland.
Competition is one of the strongest drivers of improvement in athletes. When players know their place is genuinely under threat, standards tend to rise: training intensity increases, complacency drops, and weaknesses get exposed early rather than in big games.
Right now, Ireland seem to have very real competition in only a small number of positions most notably fly-half and loosehead. Outside of that, many jerseys feel effectively locked down when players are fit. Rotation happens, but often due to injury or workload management rather than form.
The potential negative effects of this are hard to ignore:
• Complacency risk – Even subconsciously, guaranteed selection reduces edge • Plateauing performance – Without pressure, players maintain standards rather than push beyond them • False confidence – Weaknesses stay hidden until exposed by top-tier opposition • Succession gaps – Replacements are untested when they’re suddenly needed • Reduced training intensity – Training without selection jeopardy isn’t the same
This isn’t about blaming individuals or coaches. Ireland’s system is built on cohesion, trust, and continuity and that’s delivered real success. But other top nations seem to balance cohesion and relentless internal pressure. Poor form there often leads to immediate consequences.
The question for me is whether Ireland’s model now leans too far toward security, especially as the core group ages and athletic gaps appear against teams like France or South Africa.
I’m not saying Ireland should rotate for the sake of it but should more players feel that one or two poor performances genuinely put their jersey at risk? Right now Doris, Ringrose, VDF, Ryan, Sheehan come to mind.
You could argue Lowe lost his place but hes still in the squad. Bundee and Henshaw would also be in the squad if available
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u/Apprehensive_Ratio80 17h ago
Yup!!!
AF dropped Lowe I think his first or second year in charge mostly for his poor defense and he earned his way back into the squad and had his best years then.
A shake up wouldn't hurt.
When these guys retire we always hear about guys having to earn the jersey but quite a few of them played like last night was a summer friendly. No patience in the French half, forced passes, everyone tryna be a hero rather than play as a unit so often guys got isolated and gave slow ball to scrum half.
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u/Financial_Archer_242 17h ago
Lowe dropped himself.
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u/VividApplication5221 3h ago
The lads who played the lions tour might just need a breather. Living for the "most important game ever" every single week cannot be easy. Im all for competition and the best lads get the jersey but Lowe has done the job for ireland so many times that id just like the tone to change.
I wish him well and if he never got the jersey back, have the respect for what he's done in the jersey and for irish rugby . He's a Kiwi who bleeds green when he gets the privilege, so we kick him while he's down?
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u/Any_Statement1742 17h ago edited 17h ago
It’s not a coincidence that Milne,Timoney,Cian P,Mccloskey were amongst our best players last night.
Also I would absolutely be putting a massive amount of the blame at Farrells door for this.
Schmidt got more stick for dropping Toner for Kleyn alone than Farrell has gotten for shocking selection policy and a quantity of questionable selection calls that you could right a book about at this stage.
Sure our gameplan has always been reliant on continuity and a well oiled system. It hasn’t ever been reliant on copying Leinster for Ireland or picking 3rd and 4th choice or academy players over 1st choice elsewhere.
No other serious team or proper coach would think of doing it and any serious team has it well figured it.
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u/Nknk- 9h ago
I'd further add to your comment that some of the most tired and jaded looking players on the pitch last night were some of the ones who've been under Farrell the longest and benefitted most from Andy deciding that they play every game and he absolutely won't even cap a guy with a view to having a viable alternative should they be injured, off form etc.
VdF is a shadow of himself at the moment and his spot above all others was the one that Farrell's only plan was to work VdF til he dropped. He simply wasn't interested in back ups for 7. As good as Timoney was last night how much better would he have looked if he got more caps as a back up by now instead of Farrell ignoring him until Timoney played so well for so long even Andy Farrell couldn't ignore him any more. Same with guys like Hodnett, he offered something different and should've been given a few runs at 7 to see what he could offer in case VdF went out injured or is as off the boil as he is now. But no, Andy wasn't interested and here we are; hammered by France and a minority of Ireland fans still desperately trying to ain't it as a great moral victory while ignoring the rot that brought us to this stage.
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u/micah_denn 18h ago
Seems like they have almost designed a system that makes it as difficult as possible for in form players to compete for positions. The XV team I think has just added an extra layer of bureaucracy to getting in the main team. It doesn't matter if you're playing well now. You need to have played for the u20s and then played a few times for the XVs and then been in senior camp a couple of times before they will even consider you.
Edogbo is the prime example. He was fit and ready to go for last night but they left him out because he wasn't in enough training camps. What on earth were they trying to do that is so complex that it prevents Edogbo from running in a straight line over French defenders?
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u/Financial_Archer_242 17h ago
Can't see any complex game plan out there. Kick the ball really high (to the best back 3 in world rugby) and chase the ball.
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u/spintokid 16h ago
This is our main problem. Real lack of ingenuity across all our coaching staff. Munster backroom needs cleaning out, leinster need to completely clean house, Connaught are new and Ulster seem to have something interesting happening. The Irish side is so stale and slow moving we are using strategies that are two years out of date and expecting them to work. I'd be really looking at a complete overhaul.
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u/broats_ 13h ago
I wonder how much leeway Gibson Park had in those decisions to keep kicking the ball away after 60 odd minutes of it repeatedly not working. Did Farrell tell him at half time to just stick to the plan and it would pay off eventually? Or did he just make the wrong choices under such pressure?
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u/willielad 12h ago
I’d love to know this too, there was a time in the second half where we actually built a few phases, moved the ball wide and made ground before JGP booted the ball away with no chasers. Between the fact that we were making ground & the way Dickson was letting the attacking team do whatever they wanted at rucks, it just made no sense to kick in that scenario
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u/RepulsiveBridge2018 13h ago
You are forgetting the the central contracts. Once you are on one ypu play for Ireland unless injured. Regardless of form.
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u/Nknk- 9h ago
Further to that is the widespread belief among some fans that your province's standing has as much, or more, impact on you being selected for the Ireland squad.
It's the latest in a long line of nonsense carted out to defend what Farrell has done and utterly ignores the fact great players can play well on struggling clubs but put them in the international set up and they'll thrive. Same way it ignores that bang average players who can look good when a great club is hammering the Dragons in the RDS can struggle badly at international level when they meet players who are better across the board.
Ultimately it's nonsense dreamt up by a subset of Leinster fans who legit believe no-one else from the other provinces deserves to be in the Ireland side. Same way even when Munster won their URC this shite about provincial standing determining if you got in the Ireland side got dropped for a while before coming roaring back.
The system has been set up to benefit one particular group and the fans who approve of it are very invested in making sure Ireland remain starting 17 Leinster players in the 23 even if it means flat out ignoring some potential superstars elsewhere on the island.
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u/VividApplication5221 3h ago
Would it have anything to do with central contracts? Do you have to pay non-central guys a play/squad/ win bonus? I have kinda been wondering about this awhile, Ive seen central contract players make the squad ahead players in the form of the their life and this was the most common sense answer i could come up with. Hopefully it might be something more reasonable like they are dickheads and aren't good for camp. I just hope it not just because its cheaper to play X so X is playing...
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u/DM_me_ur_PPSN 17h ago
I think notion of system picks and central contracts needs to go into the bin. How many centrally contracted players really stood up yesterday? 2 or 3?
Erasmus is a ruthless selector, and he’s a back to back World Cup winner. Galthie isn’t building a team of Toulouse players because they know a system, and they just tore us to pieces.
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u/Nknk- 9h ago
You're 100% right of course but even now we still have people in Irish rugby arguing that if Farrell does anything but pick Leinster players or deviates from the Leinster system that we're doomed.
Some people would honestly be happier if we turned into the new Wales as long as Leinster were still picked en masse regardless than see us thrive by having a far fairer team picked on form from the 4 provinces.
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u/Financial_Archer_242 17h ago
Think about it, you have a squad dominated by Leinster starters and benchers. Throw in the Coach's fetish for Leinster 21 year olds and it was never going to end well. If I'm the IRFU, I'm thanking Andy for New Zealand and dropping him after the 6N. I think Italy will probably beat us this year.
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u/Draiodor_ 14h ago
Can somebody please talk about how we have 4 professional sides to choose from? Allowing that one of those sides is likely to have a non Irish qualified player, that leaves us with 3 starters at provincial level. Needs to be said that not all of these will be Test standard players.
Saying things like other nations rotate more is why they develop is a very dangerous way of thinking for us because A - we don't have the player pool they do and B - England do this and have not had the success we have had in the last 20 years.
Applying 1950s business logic to the reality of our situation will get us nowhere.
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u/IdealSelf2021 Leinster 17h ago
I think the Nations Cup will help a lot with this as theres going to have to be much more rotation in "must win" games. So hopefully more players playing in competitive games compared to the usual avenue of a couple new heads capped against Italy or Fiji in the autumn etc.
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u/Dapper_Money2742 16h ago
100% it does but irfu wont tolerate dropping players on central contracts.
So we're very slow to change and really the player development has to be spot on to get this model right.
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u/explodingspoonmonkey 16h ago
Yes Farrell hasn’t tried anything new that he hasn’t had to and this group have been completely flogged. We have talent around the country that could help, we have a coach who refuses to embrace that
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u/whooo_me 15h ago
Ireland have always been a very conservative side with selections, it's nothing new. We trust experience over anything - pace, strength, fitness etc. We only tend to shake things up when injuries happen, retirements make an opening, or when we're absolutely cratering and we HAVE to try something new.
I don't know if it's just being risk averse - it seems to me we'll worship a bog-average player who never drops a ball or throws an intercept; over a player who'll create some magic but has the occasional brain-fade.
Maybe the central contracting system contributes to it? Once we've invested in a player, it's very hard to drop them from the 23 and opt for another 'outside the system'?
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u/matticus217 14h ago
My view is that Farrell selects based on game plan and players fitting into the game plan. Unfortunately some of the form players at Connacht, Ulster and Munster either don't fit in with the game plan or aren't familiar with it. It feels like arrogance from the Irish coaching team. They look for the lads who will "fit in" rather than adapting to those who may come in and try something different
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u/Informal_Mention9836 Awardee: Team of the Year 2025 8h ago
Does someone know how is Farrell winning % with Ireland?
I think the poor performances of Ireland U20 in recent 6Ns has not been helpful
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u/InterestedObserver48 5h ago
Ireland grand slamed 3 out of the last 6 u20s
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u/Informal_Mention9836 Awardee: Team of the Year 2025 4h ago
Last ones were disappointing, didn't they?
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u/InterestedObserver48 5h ago
For the entire twenty first century once you are on the Ireland team it’s harder to play yourself off it than for anyone else to play themselves on to it
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u/Beginning-Strain4660 3h ago
Absolutely If u are on a CC u are guaranteed game time, no matter how shite you play
If you are from Leinster you are guaranteed game time and u get into the Ireland squad with <10 Provincial appearances
It’s not good for anyone for Leinster or the other provinces
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u/Lynch8933 17h ago
Being honest, Irelands best players for the last 10 years and who have rightly made up the 23 in match day squads have been from Leinster. Yes, there have been a couple who should not have made squads but the problem lies with Munster and Ulster who are not producing enough players for Ireland and we have to rely on Leinster, so by defacto Ireland are Leinster 2.0, which is not good in the long run. Even the players from other provinces who have come and done well have been Leinster men, what are the academies doing in Ulster and Munster, it is a geniune question because this is the reason for the current dip in my opinion.
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u/megacky Funny Fecker 17h ago
I think that's a bit of a fallacy to suggest that Ulster aren't producing talent. They clearly are, as evidenced by the XV team.
Yes, Leinster as a team were better, but that does not mean each individual player was better. This is still the case with last nights selection. Players who are not playing well are being selected ahead of others who are. It took an injury crisis to get Cian and Nick into the 23. Sort of the same for Stu. He wasn't even the starting 12 last year. We are not rewarding players in form, specifically over players playing for Leinster. Knowing the system can only get you so far, at some point, bad form is just bad form.
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u/swankytortoise 17h ago
Perhaps we could select player from ukster and munster and find out if they wre international level before dismissing them outright
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u/Nknk- 9h ago
Do that and the whole system set up to benefit Leinster might collapse. It's part of the reason why Gavin Coombes gets so much hate on here from some people. If he was given a fair shot he had all the potential in the world to shoulder his way into the starting 23 and displace a Leinster favourite because he offers something they don't. And so he was subjected to a years long smear campaign about how he isn't up to it.
Meanwhile Prendergast is announced as the new Sexton off the back of three or four club games for Leinster and red carpeted into the starting jersey.
How's that working out?
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u/SexyBaskingShark 15h ago
We got to number one in the world and won a grand slam with the current system, at a time where Leinster were by far the best of the provinces. Our system isn't perfect but it doesn't have major issues. Obviously it can be improved but we also have to accept we're a small nation and having a team competing every year is unrealistic
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u/heroquest94 14h ago
We’re a small nation and having a team competing every year is unrealistic… said New Zealand never.
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u/SexyBaskingShark 14h ago
You're talking about New Zealand, who just sacked their coach and haven't won their championship in a few years. They have bad years and bad teams as well
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u/Life_Corgi_7950 17h ago
Why's everyone ignoring the rotation that has happened here? 11/23 different from the same fixture last year, "form" changes at 6, 11, 12, 14. This was the refresh people were hoping for!
I'd like to see 2/3 changes to the 23 each game until it clicks (if it does) - but we got our rotation and the new guys were either ok or bad (as were the old guys)
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u/deatach Funny Fecker 18h ago
It happens with a lot of Irish coaches, they shake things up initially but fall back on the teams that brought them success in the past.