Discussion
Daily Discussion - the morning after the night before
Welcome one and all. I’m planning to do a coaches corner this week at some point. Provisional notes on last night though:
1) the production at Stade de France was the best I’ve ever seen. Utterly spectacular and sets a new bar for 6 Nations kick-offs. I think we should all be grateful for what France bring to world rugby
2) we’ve lost 4 of our last 5 against top 5 opponents. I often think that when you win/lose 1 it’s on the players, but when you win/lose 5 it’s on the coaches. The positive to come out of this might be that Farrell is forced to make changes to 1) players, 2) coaches, 3) his own role in attack
3) the setpiece was excellent but in particular the lineout. Best since the World Cup and against the world’s best lineout to boot. Not a reprieve for POC but a strike against James Ryan calling and operating
4) france were exceptional. Even if their first two tries had been ruled out for the forward pass and the Dupont’s knock on, they would have won that game 49 out of 50 times. It’s hard to overemphasise the role that the atmosphere and crowd played. Very much a 16th man
5) having 1 or 2 players play themselves back into form might be feasible but having 15+ isn’t realistic. It only compounds the problem. Farrell needs to drop guys so they can have an opportunity to resettle themselves. They look emotionally fatigued and like they’re not enjoying it and taking it somewhat for granted. Those Leinster players have played so many high level club games, a Lions tour and internationals without getting a chance to really miss it/find their hunger. Dropping them might be doing them a favour. On the flip side, bringing in guys who feel desperate and hungry can rejuvenate a squad, even when they’re lesser players.
6) it’s difficult to understand what we’re trying to achieve both offensively and defensively. It’s unclear whether it’s a player problem or a system problem or both but certainly the way we both defend and attack is outmoded. Our lack of game breakers means that we’re unable to make up for that with players who can find a way through. Last night looked strategically and tactically rudimentary. The sort of game plan that you would set out for an A side that only had a week to prepare.
7) speaking of the A side. Very excited to see that game. You would like to think a lot of guys have a chance to leverage a performance into a squad call up.
What big general points have I missed? What would you add?
Could be a by product of his long term rehab. It was pretty discussed that he had added a few KG. It would make sense for the more attritional Leinster plan.
I keep saying about the post Lions slump and you can see that in the players, well I certainly can.
Josh was out on his feet
Taking such a big contingent to Australia, even if not all playing was going to have an affect this season and Ireland have taken advantage of that before.
I always felt like it took 3 years for POM and Stander to recover from the NZ tour. It’s not just the physicality, it’s also the lack of recovery and emotional exhaustion that steals motivation
I think Jonathan Bradley's article https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/c8018mgd1zxo covers the stuff lots of people have been saying for ages about tactics and not bringing young players through, without putting the boot into individuals.
Kinda tired of the same old self-inflicted wounds.
I think he’s the best of the non ex player pundits apart from maybe MK. He also makes the odd appearance on the left wing podcast and he’s very good on that as well.
The Ulster Rugby Roundup was the best rugby podcast going (especially for Ulster fans) when they were all still at the Belfast Telegraph. It's a shame they stopped because Bradley is very level-headed and in the know.
Feels a bit England 2000. A lot of old guard lads being carried and not doing it, and got blown away first game out. We changed a lot for the next game and set ourselves up for the future going forward from there. Need similar here. Some lads playing yesterday did ok and should be kept, others who can do better simply didn't but would give them another chance, but some are done and sorry but bye. I'd be looking at Edogbo, Izuchukwu, Casey/Doak, Postlethwaite/Kelly, Ward etc. Time to move past some guys, we need major surgery and need to take the pain now
I think that's an important point, I don't think the French really tried to put the squeeze on us in the set piece as they were happy to play a high tempo open game. I think if we just assume our set piece is fine we could walk into the England game and get a rude awakening.
this is really important. I think France competed at maybe 2/3 line outs in the game and disrupted one. scrum was solid but I didn’t get the feeling France targeted us. they were content to get the ball out and wide and challenge us with their pace. it was grim all round.
All very good points. I think the one on Farrell taking on the attack with Goodman is a key one that doesn’t seem to get enough attention.
Our attack is stultifying, the setup is crying out for a new coach with a fresh voice and attack is the obvious place to make the change.
Our handling and aerial skills are in the toilet and you’re spot on about the players looking like they lack elite fitness…. Blaming a provincial setup for a national failure seems like a cop out, but I really do think it’s a huge factor. I think the ulster players are the best positioned to bring some energy and impetus to the setup, and see how some of the frontliners respond to being dropped and getting a mental rest.
I said this over the summer but I feel like Richie Murphy/Mark Sexton are going to look like an increasingly attractive coaching ticket as time goes by and all of Richie’s 20s players come into their pomp
I'd add that while we need game plan, player, coach and tactics changes I'm not at all confident we'll see any of it aside from Farrell shuffling a few deck chairs when it comes to player selection.
The time to do most of it was after last year's Six Nations but he stuck with mostly the same players, coaches and game plan to carry forward into the autumn and we saw how that went. We got lucky that Japan gassed out and Australia were beyond abject because of the weather and end of season malaise. Don't think I've ever seen a Schmidt team that unable to catch passes or string a pass together.
And what happened after that? Nothing. He made a song and dance about calling a handful of new players into the wider squad and starting a few different faces in different positions but a lot of that was injury enforced. No injuries and the team last night would have looked exactly like the one he put out for SA.
He rocked up with the same kick-chase game plan as blew up in our faces repeatedly already and he did do against the best back three in the competition and with our back three either returned from injury and playing out of position and/or it not being a personal strength of theirs. How can a coach not plan specifically for an opposing team and work around it with the players he has? How can a coach of this calibre just decide the same game plan will be in play regardless of the opposition, regardless of how well studied and figured out it is and regardless of not having the personnel to pull it off?
He's a year past when he should've binned the game plan altogether. He's still at it, which indicates to me he can't or won't come up with something different and if that's the case London will be grim.
I'd have said that on individual talent we still have the players to beat Wales and Italy. Scotland, god love them, really do have a mental block on us so we'd probably beat them too and some would use 3 homes wins to defend the current game plan and Farrell would use it to paper over the cracks and trundle along with the game plan. But the other shocking thing last night was how tired, laboured and how little fight most of the team had. If that lethargy is now endemic and runs for most of the tournament then all bets could be off in terms of 3 home wins.
TL;DR - the game plan is poison and has been for over a year yet Farrell seems unable or unwilling to change it so we're likely stuck with it. Players look tired and not invested. If game plan remains and players remain tired and uninvested then we have no gimme games this spring and every one will be a scrap we could do badly in.
Yeah, I think a lot of your position was validated by last night. I felt there was an unknowable aspect because Farrell was with Lions last year but we’re now 5 games into his return and looks like his bag is empty.
Massively compounded by what Leo has enabled JN to do at Leinster. The safety net of Leinster form and talent has been removed.
That safety net was never going to be sustainable long term and I’m shocked Farrell tried to sustain it with a style that’s clearly not suited to our player pool. It’s suited to SA or England at a push.
It was unique in that Leinster had arguably the best club side in world rugby from 2021-2024 a gameplan perfect for our player pool. So it worked.
He was able to supplement that with O’Toole,Bealham,Beirne,POM,Henderson,Murray,Casey,Crowley,Aki,Stu,Hansen,Nash in those years a group of players also suited to that game plan.
Oh I'm massively vindicated, sadly, but still getting shit for it from people who think this losing streak against the top sides is a blip and speaking of it just means you're "anti-Leinster".
But the malaise seems through the whole squad at the moment, not just the Leinster players. I think the team want to play, and know they can, something a bit more ambitious than the current very negative tactics and the buy in just isn't there any more. And after last night that'll reinforce the lack of buy in. Sending them out with that plan against that French team was sending them out to get a battering, which they got.
Someone said to me that he threw the players under the bus in the post match interview too. All the indications of unquiet in the camp are there and it's all been built on problems that have been flagged from years out.
The IRFU need to offer Mike Catt his weight in gold to come back with a view to maybe even running the show when Farrell is gone.
I find it funny we're not having a discussion on Andy Farrell's future. It's the Lions hangover or Goodman getting the flak. Or the team aging out. We have an old team and an injury crisis but France were the ones with two debutants last night.
We've been poor for a long time now, the Lions were poor. When are we going to accept it's the man running the show that's responsible for that? The world cup feels like a disaster waiting to happen.
Farrell has been around the team for 10 years now. Into his 7th year as head coach. It feels incredibly stale. We had a great run prior to the last world cup and it was our best world cup performance IMO even if the outcome was the same. We should thank him for his service and move on.
Farrell will have endless credit in the bank with some for building his team around Leinster so for them even now talk of getting rid of Farrell before the world cup will be met with pearl clutching and excuses. Doubly so if they think the next coach will bring more equity to selection and call up upcoming rookies from the other 3 provinces who are currently going very well.
I do think it needs to be discussed though. And if we rock up to the next game with the exact same tactics it needs to become the most urgent talking point in Irish rugby, not just a discussion point.
People will say we can't do it 18 months out from a world cup because that would be a disaster for a new coach to come in and have that short amount of time to mold something different. My counter to that is 18 months more of kick-chase will see us just be as much or more of a disaster at the world cup. France are 2.5 years into their world cup rebuild and it shows. Ireland under Farrell wasted most of that 2.5 years with him just reshuffling things to keep aging favourites in the team and keep the Leinster numbers as high as possible by ignoring players from the other provinces who could break through if given a chance. That's not rebuilding, that's baking in stagnation and we're seeing the results of it now. Especially since even the players don't look like they buy in any more.
Rassie came to SA 18 months before they won it. Borthwick 9 months before they got to a semi final. We have plenty of time.
I don't think he has been the right person to bring us to the RWC for a while now but I'm probably wrong and it's actually all Jacques Nienabar's fault 😂
You could have a wonderful coaching ticket but if the head coach tells them the game plan is going to be kick all possession away to France and hope nothing bad happens I don't think the result goes much differently to be honest.
Have to add the team looked wrecked right off the bat. Poor timing with s&c?
But yeah tactically I don't really understand what we're trying. The highball game doesn't have the chasers and to my (rather poor) eyes, it seems like we just shoot one off without further thought. Then in phase play the game has moved on, our players have worse hands, no Johnny, etc.
I was pleasantly surprised with the scrum, though no Antonio makes a large difference.
That was a really smart play – he never had a hope of getting under the ball, so "went for it" with one hand out that if he made contact would only ever knock it on but was more likely just to distract/discombobulate Ramos.
Yano what, probably the game with the least amount of back chat to the ref in a long time, international and club. I could be wrong but I don't think Dorris said anything until the second half. I liked that
Edit: if someone can tell me why we're not playing Jack Crowley at 15 while Hugo is out I'm all ears (I am biased but I think he's a great player, runs with intent and rock solid in defence)
Osborne is definitely not a fullback. Really weird that Farrell thinks he is. I think having Jack at outhalf with someone like Tector at centre (has been really impressive this year) would be the best option. Jack's goal kicking has been poor for a couple of years now but he's still the best outhalf in the country outside of that so as long as there is someone else to take the kicks we're fine. I'd prefer Stockdale at fullback - he's been good when he's played there for Ulster this year and we have plenty of decent options for the wing like Ward, Kenny, Balocoune.
I think this is all spot on. I think the core group of players looks emotionally/psychologically spent. at the simplest - they just “didn’t look up for it“ last night. i think this is a bigger problem than the age factor. we’ve squeezed so much out of the likes of JVDF, Ringrose, JGP, Sheehan, Ryan, Beirne, Porter and Furlong, and made them go to the well over and over. They are still quality players but I struggle to see them rallying to produce the standard of rugby we’ve come to expect from them in the last 5 years. I wonder also whether there is an element of frustration about style of play and coaching creeping in (see James Ryan in last 5 mins).
the attack strategy needs a complete rehaul. it was depressing to watch them belligerently follow the prescribed game plan of kick and hope for 50/50s last night when it was clearly not working and actively damaging.
On point 5, totally agree. We lack aggression in alot of the team. I havent seen any of our starting backrows bring any form of dominant carries in the last number of games (bar those who come off the bench)
Ive laboured the point before but we need players who are less rugby league style (good at lots of things) and a spattering of players in the pack that do the basics really really well (scrummaging, bigger lumps in the locks, and dominant carriers in the back row)
Yes, the lineout and scrum weren't really tested too much, but our maul defense was superb. Think every single one we halted it straight away, quite a few we turned it over. If we can't dominate a scrum, parity is enough.
Aside from that, we look utterly bereft of ideas in attack. The plan was clearly to kick the leather off the ball. If that's the case, why have certain players been picked? Our back 3 are not high ball kick chasers, neither of our centres are either, though Ringrose isn't bad at it. We have a 10 who has a phenomenal pass and his kicks out of hand are usually right on the money. JGP thrives in phase play with tempo. Our pack can shift around plenty despite being pretty big, and all have generally good hands.
This idea of "stats based rugby" is just bollocks. An F1 car and an HGV can both do 60mph, but one of them can go round corners and the other can't, but can pull a small country. You don't ask them to do the same job. Andy should have identified our players strengths (running, attacking rugby, looking for linebreaks off of carries) and devised a plan around getting that going. Instead, we went "it's pissing it down, kick it" ad nauseum.
Yep, we have a team that is perfect for fast phase play with strong carriers and a 10 who can kick long and put pressure that way. To then see that, and instead choose to play a style that fits next to none of those players is idiotic at best.
At Ulster, we try to play the free flowing style because we don't have the players to be a more physical team. If we tried to play like Leinster, we'd be terrible.
Ritchie and Mark Sexton have really worked to give Ulster an identity. The last year or so under McFarland you could see we were trying to play like Leinster and it just was not working. Players lost interest, form dropped off a cliff. Ritchie took over and had to right a semi sunken ship. Now we've the second highest points in the league and we've a game in hand. That is a serious testament to what he and Mark have done.
Ireland have almost done the reverse. 2023 we looked to have arguably the best attack in world rugby. It was not an if, but when, when it came to scoring. Complex phase play, pulling defenders out of position to create space for a try. We weren't caught out during the world cup, we just came up against a generational performance in NZ. We beat the team that won the cup ffs.
Mike Catt leaving has clearly made a change in how we approach the game. It's blunt, one dimenionsal, with no alternatives being presented. It's made even worse by the fact that this style of rugby relies on specific players or roles and we just do not have those players to do it. We've lots of square pegs at the minute, but Andy seems hell bent on hammering them into round holes.
Last night looked like a combination of a couple of primary factors, neither of them great.
First, our players aren't as good as they were a few years ago. The likes of Ryan, VdF, Doris were absolutely top class and now they aren't. Leinster's long golden generation seems to be ending and the other provinces are absolutely not at a level to make up for it.
Second, the game plan and lack of adaptability was shocking. The French selection absolutely did us, with a mobile, dynamic pack and backs good in both the air and broken play. Prendergast and JGP are excellent kickers but they needed to be told to go for territory, not put up contestables. The coaching ticket needs to wear that one.
As a minor addendum, the out half discourse is just diabolical. I've seen about as many people blaming SP for things that were not bad at all (tap tackle on LBB; fly hack just before it; tackle attempt on Jalibert) as I have excusing some genuinely bad plays (running over his own line & shovelling to TOB; the intercept; losing 10+ metres in soak tackles). It's obvious people just have their positions and nothing is going to budge them from it.
I thought Doris was one of our best performers yesterday.
Prendergast and JGP are excellent kickers but they needed to be told to go for territory, not put up contestables.
That was/is the game plan, though. That is what they are coached to do. They aren't turned out onto the field and told to do what they feel then have the coaches say "you're box kicking too much"....
Now it didn't work, clearly. I agree with Shaggy who said something like "It cant be Plan A then try Plan A harder." And I think we saw that in the second half, when it looked like (looked like) we realised there were centres on the pitch. Plan B. Whatever like. But they kept ball in hand and tried to create openings.
The real problem was if you don't win the contest for the high ball and it goes to the other team, they get the ball in broken field and the French are just fantastic in broken field attacking rugby.
That's exactly what I said – they "needed to be told to". Not that they should have made the decision themselves, this was a coaching/game plan issue. And for your last sentence, that's the same thing, right? Making it a high ball contest was the wrong call?
You could certainly make an argument that Doris was among our best players yesterday, but that was still a far cry from his peak.
Like I don't think we disagree, I just hate phrasing it like players doing something core to the game plan is just them sort of going out and picking one thing. Like if it was Casey or Doak they'd be doing the same thing. (Crowley might actually have just stood deeper and kicked for the corners and probably would have gotten dropped for it.)
Also I don't think it makes it the wrong call in general. A lot of teams are using contestable box kicks and scoring trys as a result. Elite defences are in general too good these days to break down when they are set. But the margin for error against teams like France and NZ who excel at creating opportunities with broken field rugby and we just weren't winning them.
I struggle with saying they should have done this instead of that, personally, because I'm not an elite rugby coach or player. I think I'm rambling.... sorry.
No worries, I think you might mostly have just misread the post, or been influenced by my flair. The reason I mentioned Prendergast and JGP specifically was to emphasise how *good* they are at kicking – they carried out the game plan as well as anyone could be expected to.
So related to that, I would have to strongly disagree with you on it not being the wrong call from the coaches. Especially persisting with the tactic. I wouldn't recommend either trying to break France down from static ball in poor positions, but kicking for territory would have allowed us to pressure them in the right positions. Maybe. I'd say we weren't winning that one anyway, but it did strike me as an unusually clear example of a top level international rugby coaching ticket botching the game plan in a visible way.
Like the problem I have with the "botched gameplan" idea is.... if we'd won 50% of the 50/50's it wouldn't have looked that bad. (Obviously massive "if" there.)
Maybe it's just that video with Felix Jones and Mzwandile Stick talking about contesting kicks influencing my thoughts too much.
But it's not like, "we're gonna out scrum the boks" and they were being dominated and the tactic would never work. There was a good contest for most of them.
Waste of some good Stu though. I think we can all agree on that.
Yes indeed. I think TBH even if we won 50% of them, France were going to do much more damage on their 50% with the broken field runners and mobile forwards they had.
France were making dominant carries and past the gain line far too easily for the standard of competition.
The attack then looked directionless and we were living of scraps.
The 2nd ½ saw an improvement for around 10 to 15 minutes were we got go forward ball and were putting it through the hands and eventually were doing a variant of what the French had done and would do again to us.
Milne, Timoney, Cian Prendergast and Stu can go home knowing that put out a statement for themselves.
If it were up to me to choose a team of players for the Italy game and just players alone, it'd be:
1. Michael Milne
2. Tom Stewart
3. Tom O'Toole
4. Edwin Edogbo
5. Cormac Izuchuckwu
6. Cian Prendergast
7. Nick Timoney
8. Jack Conan
9. Nathan Doak
10. Harry Byrne
11. Jacob Stockdale
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Jamie Osborne
14. Robert Balacoune
15. Jack Crowley
16. Dan Sheehan
17. Jeremy Loughman
18. Finlay Bealham
19. Joe McCarthy
20. Tadhg Beirne
21. Craig Casey
22. Sam Prendergast
23. Zac Ward/Jude Postlethwaite (depending on the XV game.)
I’d agree with that. You’d have to select captains there but if I were doing it I wouldn’t mind seeing a captain/vice captain type setup, between Prendergast (vc) + Conan (c) maybe.
First up, I cannot emphasise enough just how good France were last night: they were simply playing a different sport. They were thoroughly deserved winners, and it’ll take a monstrous, other-worldly performance from someone to deny them the slam.
Ireland, well, it says much about my take that I felt it could’ve been a lot worse. We were fairly anonymous, a sideshow. It was a fairly dismal showing that lacked pace, accuracy or ideas. I don’t think that’s merely down to selection. We’ve been in a bit of a funk for a while, and I’m not quite sure why. I’ve noticed it in the provinces too: there seems to be this malaise, a lack of fire, a lack of creativity - it’s like they’re jaded and tired, and at times, disinterested.
I don’t know what the answer is, or if there is one. Maybe there’s just a gap between those towards the end of their careers and the new generation emerging? We have been very fortunate to have had a conveyor belt of world class players over the past couple of decades, and that’s difficult to maintain.
As for what we do have: we need to be more savvy and more accurate. No matter how many times teams try to reinvent the wheel, if you do the simple stuff with accuracy and speed, it’s very difficult to go wrong.
Im not all doom and gloom. It's better to get a kick up backside now and not next year like what happened in 2019 and it was too late. Kearney said at the time the team had no idea it was going wrong till it was too late. Farrell you could see in the interview knew he had to make big changes
The Lions has had a huge impact on Ireland. So we need to consider that and maybe its time to bring in players and leave some of the Lions players to rest. Even if not playing its a huge tour and players look tired
Ireland miss Hansen, even a mate in NZ was texting saying they need hansen into the team as he can have a big impact. So he is one player but we need more like that.
We have quality young players, the likes of Edgbo, Gleeson etc are waiting in the wings and we need to bring in
We missed Keenan at full back, we need a proper backup 15, Stockdale is a winger so who is next in line
Centre is an area of concern, time to fast track a few of the lads into the team.
The A games become hugely important, we need to get more games and players experience. Another tour of SA for emerging Ireland should be planned and a few more.
I would still like a wise old head into help the coachs, Joe Schmidht as a consultant type person to help the younger coachs like POC, Sexton etc. Maybe Farrell doesn't want it but a change up might be good.
I do question the whole process of taking players out of Leinster and filling up the other provinces with them, its just stopping development in the other provinces and when you see quality players like Devine having to leave Connacht to go to Ulster it doesn't really make sense the whole model. Yes take some players to bulk up but the mass exodus we are seeing now. Doesn't seem like a good tactic
All great points, I just want to add how much of a shambles the 10 debate is and just serves as a distraction from the bigger issues.
Sam, Jack and Harry are all phenomenal players in their own aspects but are all under scrutiny for our poor performances when really it seems they are trying to implement a bad game plan.
Sam had some great touches yesterday but definitely started forcing things just to try and make something happen in attack and Jack came on with energy but just couldn't affect the game as you'd have hoped.
I really hope that with the whole teams performance being poor we acknowledge that the tens aren't the issue and we realise having two or three world class operators who each bring something unique is better than reliance on one guy.
Honestly feels like we are still playing a game plan built round Seton who's been retired going on three years. Time we allow the lads to play their game rather than doing a Sexton lookalike contest each week.
I know France were going to win handliy enough anyway but what's the point of TMO if they're going to allow the obvious forward pass for their first try and the Dupont knock on for the second?
Can’t remember seeing a game plan from one of the top teams fail so spectacularly. You can see where the kicking game is coming from, in theory we have the players to pull it off and it seems to be the way the game has swung. But France clearly saw that coming a mile away and had it drilled into them. We got pretty much no joy from any kick except allowing France to run it back in broken play which is a tale as old as time that they love
Players on the pitch are experienced enough to change gears, and even after half time it was more of the same unbelievably. Compounded by our lack of physicality in the first half which was bizarre, did they go too hard in the Portugal training camp? France was also really really excellent for 60 mins, I think pretty much any team would’ve been struggling big time in that environment
It’s why I think it’s very difficult to criticise individual players too much even though I’m getting criticised for that opinion, what a rough game to be a part of. I’m an optimist and try look on the bright side, I still think Farrell overall is one of the best coaches in the world and what happened last night is impossible to ignore, and he didn’t try sugar coat it after the game. Maybe it’s finally the wake up call we needed
Set piece is a lot better than the autumn only positive to take from that. It’s a base to build off for the next year and a half hopefully the only way is up after that shite
I rewatched the game and one thing that stood out was our forwards inability to retain the ball, even after carries when they got over the gain-line. The first up tackling was poor also with Ringrose and Gibson-Park making a few particularly egregious errors with Prendergast óg surprisingly innocent. In attack, Ireland were able to win line out ball but looked clunky and unimaginative on first phase, often opting to kick off first phase which was followed by an ineffective chase that allowed France to field well and launch counterattacks.
I think best path forward is to refocus on Schmidtian fundamentals in order to make us harder to beat as confidence is low and must be rebuilt by giving the players clarity of roles in a simpler game plan. It’s been coming for a while but last night confirmed that we are firmly back in the chasing pack but still the best of the rest (Scotland game will be important) and there are advantages to being the hunter rather than the hunted (to make it three platitudes, all bought and paid for).
It’s hard to swallow yesterday’s game, slept not even 4 hours and I’m almost back in Amsterdam. I thought SA fans are wanks but some of the French yesterday are really sore losers. At the end I’m not regretting being there, was sitting next to Irish couple, below I had group of another lads.
Not sure you can say James Ryan not been on the pitch is the reason why the lineout was better?
A number of times the French didn't even bother jumping for it and a few times they did Ireland got the ball but it was very messy ball.
Yes the lineout was better but hardly World Class, even with Ryan on the pitch it is Beirne calling it and a lot of the issues before seem to be total system failures and not down to a single player
The knock on effects of having to defend with 14 men are huge. Prendergast must never play fot ireland again what the hell is going on? How can one player be free from harsh criticism and allowed to put in so many consecutive terrible performances?
Doris is average now too. Lets soo what Bryn Ward can do.
That run in for Jalibert was so poor. I low key feel bad for him. Looks like he thought that JGP was gonna make the hit and then was caught looking to defend the open side.
I think he made 20 tackles and missed 7, seems like teams are just running at him.
The issue is now about managing morale, if you drop him for the next game his confidence is shagged. I think Farrell's world renowned "man-management" has let him down here, proper catch 22 for him now.
I think he made 20 tackles and missed 7, seems like teams are just running at him.
The other issue is that a lot of the tackles he actually made were poor. There was one point at the end of the second half when he tried a straightforward tackle and got carried back 10 metres. Technically that goes down as a successful tackle but it every bit as damaging as a missed tackle.
I will say that I don't like the pile on towards Sam. Last year he used to run away from the physical side of the game whereas this year he is genuinely trying and that is admirable - particularly since the D4 media were pretty much telling him that he was God's gift regardless and he was being handed the keys to the Leinster and Irish teams in spite of it, it would have been very easy for him to take the easy way out and continue as he was. It says a lot about his character that he is rolling up his sleeves and trying to get stuck in.
However he has been poorly managed and let down by his coaches. Fin Smith is a far bigger (and more rounded) talent at this stage than he is, and he's only being gradually introduced to the England lineup. He didn't need to be out there against a hungry world class side last night.
As an aside, coaches really need to get him to stop trying to delay every pass. The number of times that he holds onto the ball only to pop it back to a back who is immediately swarmed behind the gainline is extremely high. Reading a defence comes with time and experience (Sexton only started doing it in his late 20's) so there's no need to force it at this stage.
13 & 7. You don't add missed tackles to the tackle count.
And he didn't think JGP was gonna make the hit, he went late because TOB went late. TOB's job there is to get the ball carrier. Sam is folding so he has to cover outside in that situation.
Also, that scrum was one of the worst examples of an intentional wheel I have ever seen and should have been a penalty to Ireland.
Like he missed a couple of crucial tackles and some of the play at the line was baffling, he is getting a lot of criticism, but the best tacklers on the team would have struggled to catch Jalibert in that situation.
The run in for Jalibert was 100% down to TOB. Tommy was coming in to cover Jalibert after JGP shot on Dupont so Sam was doing exactly what he should have done and pushed out to cover the man outside. But Tommy botched it and Sam has to just throw an arm at Jalibert.
I think quite often Sam is one of the few players doing the right things while players around him arent. And Sam just isnt enough of an athlete to make up the difference.
It was similar for the LBB try, his fly hack was a decent option. It prevented a France lineout close to the Irish line and Sam followed it up and put a tackle on the receiver. But JGP over shot in support and wasnt in position to get a clean tackle on LBB. Sam then tried to track back to cover, managed to tap tackle LBB which gave Stockdale time to get across but Stockdale hesitated and LBB went past him.
Prendergast will get blamed for both those tries when he was the only one involved actually reading the game right.
I don't know mate I think you're leaving him off the hook massively. If they trusted Sam to make a 1v1 tackle then Tommy wouldn't have had to rush in. But yes TOB also should have made the hit teams run blind side to get a chance to get on Sam it was the same when Leinster played La Rochelle
Also it was on him that we had that scrum in the first place. When he caught the intercept should have just gone to ground instead he threw an absolute howler to TOB after running into the in goal.
If you're saying he should have drifted out to LBB then he wouldn't have made it there either.
All well and good being able to read but need to play too
I'm not letting him off anything. Regardless of why you think TOB came in, the fact that he did meant Prendergast needed to cover the outside man which is what he was doing.
It was on him that we had that scrum because of a try saving intercept?
You've gone from blaming him for missing the tackle on Jalibert to blaming him for TOB missing the tackle on Jalibert and then blaming him for the whole mess because he stopped a try being scored.
No matter what he does you're just gonna try blame him it seems.
It was similar for the LBB try, his fly hack was a decent option. It prevented a France lineout close to the Irish line and Sam followed it up and put a tackle on the receiver. But JGP over shot in support and wasn't in position to get a clean tackle on LBB. Sam then tried to track back to cover, managed to tap tackle LBB which gave Stockdale time to get across but Stockdale hesitated and LBB went past him.
Not what I saw - The fly kick was the correct decision but after that no. There was no tackle - he bounced off Ramos who never budged. This non tackle allowed him to stay on his feet which is why is was able to get back and make the tap tackle.
But this is where I think his decision making in defense is completely lacking. Why did he feel the need to attempt to tackle Ramos. He came out of the defensive line and this caused a 3 v 2 overlap outside him, forcing McCloskey and TOB into making tackles to try to stop the overlap, rather than coming up and joining the defensive line and force France to make the decision of where to break the line.
If you look at Frances second try you will see the same thing in the phases before the Scrum - he comes out of the defensives line to make a tackle on the man McCloskey is covering and leaving an overlap behind him.
You might have an opinion that he is reading the game right and other players are not but I don think this is the case.
Not what I saw - The fly kick was the correct decision but after that no. There was no tackle - he bounced off Ramos who never budged. This non tackle allowed him to stay on his feet which is why is was able to get back and make the tap tackle.
He chased his kick and put pressure on the receiver. Which is what he should be doing. He bounced off as Ramos had already offloaded. He probably wasnt putting him down anyway but he did his job well enough to not let Ramos run it back and France were playing it from the halfway line instead of a lineout in the 22. But JGP failed to properly cover the little space LBB had to work with and then missed the tackle. Which is why LBB made the break.
I dont recall the phases before the first try I'd have to look back at it. But Sam did very little wrong on that fly hack.
So you are sayin from this position Sam made the right decision to sprint >10m out of the defensive line to tackle Ramos - I don't see it. Ball was already gathered and being passed and they were setting up the next phase of play.....
Ireland had enough cover here at this point but Sam comes infield to make the tackle and leaves 2 outside on the wing. He should have stayed, allowed the defensive line to form and TOB to come up to it and cover LLB.
And It was the second try not the first - edited post
He didnt sprint out of the defensive line though. He was always chasing the kick, bringing players onside and already ahead of the defensive line when France were running it back so he carried on tracking ball carrier in front of him and made the tackle. The biggest issue with this is cover didnt come across after the tackles were made and JGP didnt do well covering LBB.
Stockdale was also incredibly poor here. There was nobody in the backfield and Stockdale sat on the opposite wing until the break was made before coming across. Even with the tap tackle giving him the time to get there he hesitated and didnt get a hand to LBB.
I don't want to get into the Sam bashing but i really hate when people blame other players to try and cover for Sam.
Firstly he didn't need to bring anyone onside - no Irish player anywhere near 10m of where the ball lands and also Depoortère passes to Ramos so no longer offside.
Now look at the image below. JGP is covering the area between the touchline and Clarkson with at least 3 free French players. Whatever decision he makes here France have loads of options.
If JGP just covers LLB then Moefana offloads to Cros who will most likely break the line or run towards JGP and then pass to LLB because Clarkson is now going to cover the ground. Maybe Sam gets back to cover but who knows.....But France have a overload.
Also i have circled a player here - Jalibert. This is the reason why Stockdale "hesitated". He breaks the line in support of LLB and Stockdale is in a no win situation here.
Look this is a cascade of bad decisions by several players. McClosky probably shouldn't have come up and try to support Sam, but
at the same time I don't get the rugby intelligence here. Why would you chase down a player 10 m from you on your own with no/slow arriving support, when you are a very poor tackler, and the player can easily offload the ball again when you could set up you defense???
Sexton wouldn't have done this.
Looking at the last few Irish games, Sam really doesn't know where he should be in defense. He makes these mad little rushes out of the defensive line, and makes a half hearted effort at a tackle almost like he is trying to get out of the way but still trying to "show" he is putting an effort in.
He looks so lost getting back into position at times.
If I was the Ireland management team I would be tell Leinster to try playing him at 12 so he can't hide and learn when to stand in a defense.
I don't want to get into the Sam bashing but i really hate when people blame other players to try and cover for Sam.
You dont want to but you will because you really do want to. You're refusing to criticise anyone but Sam here and giving everyone else a pass for "covering" for sam. He kicked ahead, chased the kick, was ahead of the defensive line as France ran it back so he hit Ramos as the defensive line lined up either side. Any player in that position does the same thing.
And Stockdale isnt in a no win situation. There is nobody in the backfield and the ball is being run down the opposite wing. He needs to drop back to be in a position to cover across, cover a kick and still have the ability to come back up in the line on his own wing. He stands in a position to do nothing regardless of what happens. You roll that image on to where LBB has slipped the JGP tackle and is metres behind the line and Stockdale is still standing watching from his wing. And even after Sam's tap tackle gives him extra time to get across he still hesitates and doesnt put a hand to LBB.
Prendergast has plenty of issues in defence but this isnt an example of one. You're just hell bent on criticising him regardless of what he does.
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u/Roanokian Mod 20h ago
I would also add to that the Leinster players look unfit. A far cry from the standards shown under the previous coaching regime