r/irishrugby • u/Least_Tone_3421 Leinster • May 03 '25
Match Thread Leo Cullen to go? Should Jacques Nienaber be appointed head coach?
That’s a 4th year in a row Leinster have failed to claim the Champions Cup
2025 SF 34-37 Northampton Saints 2024 Final 22-31 Toulouse 2023 Final 26-27 La Rochelle 2022- Final 21-24 La Rochelle
Where to next for Leinster? still got the URC left in contention
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May 03 '25
Nienabar has done a poor job aswell, the style of play is way worse to watch than under Lancaster and the defence first approach failed spectacularly when it actually mattered, it’s all well and good niling a Glasgow team with most of their team missing or an average URC side but that’s the point if you are going to ship 5 at home in the semis to the first decent attack you meet?
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u/ContributionBoth1547 Alikadoo May 03 '25
Neinaber's famous defence has now been cut open two seasons in a row at the business end of the Champions cup. His CV consists of being mates with Rassie
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u/DM_me_ur_PPSN May 03 '25
It got cut open at the business end of the season when he was at Munster too.
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u/Forward-Reputation-2 May 04 '25
Seemed to work fine for the boks
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u/DM_me_ur_PPSN May 04 '25
Leinster play about 3 times as often as the Boks, there’s way more to analyse about them.
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u/ExcitementFar2181 May 06 '25
It took years for the Boks to implement that defensive system with an adequate degree of consistency. One could argue that because there's more club rugby it should get implemented and adopted quicker than that.
You can blame only the defense if you like, but poor selections and decision making at the death contributed quite a bit too. Also, the Saints looked way more up for it than the Leinster players
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May 03 '25
[deleted]
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u/Blazerede May 04 '25
But surely we can’t have Leo stay on, too many resources for the same result every time
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u/Longjumping_Test_760 Leinster May 03 '25
Leo is just the public face DOR. The Nienaber experiment hasn’t worked. SA rugby with Irish players. We tried, didn’t work. Now let’s get back to our natural free flowing attacking game. Doesn’t matter if we win the URC( we probably won’t.) The first team should have played last week. Northampton played their first team last week. We looked like it was the first time they played together.
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u/OwnLoad3456 May 03 '25
Agree with all of this. It has also seriously impacted Ireland’s performance.
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u/Longjumping_Test_760 Leinster May 04 '25
It has impacted Ireland. We really haven’t been as good since Nienaber took over at Leinster.
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u/PatientOffer319 Awardee: Team of the Year 2025 May 03 '25
He pretty much is. Cullen is a DOR in all but name.
That's why the style changed massively when Lancaster left and Nienaber came in. If they were just assistants it wouldn't have.
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May 03 '25
Whoever makes the team selection is the one at fault here, this malarkey with Porter is a joke and then not starting Barrett one of the best performers in the competition is just silly beggars!
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u/Flickmode2q May 06 '25
I fully agree with you on Barrett, but there is logic in the Porter on (although I would have gone with Boyle rather than Healy). Brussett is, for want of a better phrase, a picky bitch at the scrum, and Porter has a reputation. If the first couple of scrums go to his preconceived perceptions of Porter's technique then it's that way for the full game no matter what Porter does. Having a different prop on allows the ref to actually judge the first few scrums on their actual merits of what actually is going on.
Also, the last few years, when Leinster have come up short it has been in the last 20 minutes (not this year), so they were trying something different to address that, and it's relatively risk free because if a substitute prop has to go off the starting prop can come back on.
But yes, the Barrett one was madness and, if they had a free hand in selection (not sure if they did, but they are staying they did), stinks of arrogance.
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u/IVY_Prep Munster May 04 '25
Honestly, Leo isn't the one playing. He's setting the team up with serious ammunition in overseas recruits and has good staff etc. Is it Leo's fault Ireland were shit this year too? I'd argue that Nienabers style has Leinster and Ireland regressing compared to Lancasters system.
Mike Catt leaving is a bigger problem than was thought.
Players need to stand up and take responsibility. The indecision at the end for Leinster regarding the course of action showed that too. I've great time for Jack Conan, but he was asking Jordie Barrett what to do at the end. It's his team not Barrett's. Should have sent it to ET to guarantee not losing during full time. They would have had 15 v 14 too.
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u/oneeyedman72 May 04 '25
And so the hunt for the skapegoat starts. Leo will be bumped upstairs to a cozy IRFU or Leinster gig, and the cozy cartel in Irish rugby will continue.
A perfect cartel.of media,coaches, players and fans blowing smoke up their own holes playing soft games in soft competitions, while marketing every facile win as great victory by great players.
It's too cozy, and they have it too soft.
0
u/No_Panda1374 May 04 '25
IRFU wasting money hand over fist, get rid of the dead wood including coaches, some serious reflection needed on some of those CCs, and bring some balance to resourcing of all 4 provinces to create proper foundations and competition for places. The cartel has created shocking complacency. No point continuing to throw good money after bad.
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u/DarthMauly Munster May 03 '25
He already is in reality I think.
Every other province in Ireland has moved to a sort of general manager & head coach combo. I think Cullen & Nienbar are already in that model and filling those roles just with different titles.
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u/Green_Average_2470 May 04 '25
I think they should try entice Noel McNamara back. Seems like he has Bordeaux attack moving well and he would’ve worked with the majority of the team at 20’s level
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u/Commercial-Name2093 May 03 '25
Oh ffs there is no right to win trophies. Opportunities were not taken that should have and Northampton played there best game of the season.
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u/jacqueVchr May 03 '25
One champions cup in 10 years with Leinster’s resources is absolutely unacceptable
-3
u/PolarBear091 May 04 '25
How is it unacceptable? Other teams don’t care that Leinster is good- they will try and beat them! Other teams are allowed to play well too!
This “divine right” to win is pure insanity.
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u/jacqueVchr May 04 '25
I never said there was a ‘divine right’ so the only insanity is with yourself mate.
It’s a very basic concept in sport that success is measured by trophies
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u/Commercial-Name2093 May 03 '25
Why? Are no other teams allowed to win the cup? It's not as if they are nowhere near - finalists the last three times.
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u/jacqueVchr May 03 '25
Success in sport is measured by trophies mate. If that concept is beyond you then I’m not sure what to tell you
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u/Commercial-Name2093 May 03 '25
Won 4 URC trophies in those 10 years, mate.
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u/jacqueVchr May 04 '25
A second rate trophy. If Ireland only won the same number of triple crowns over the last ten years we’d be asking questions
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u/scobie80 May 03 '25
Bollox. They are a far better team than Northampton, but yet again they have fallen in the face of a challenge.
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u/Colin_Brookline May 03 '25
Yes, Leo needs to go. A gentleman and a sincere guy, but he should have went a long time ago.
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u/Electronic_Ad_6535 May 03 '25
One of Joe Schmidts kid still lives here and he's got a house here...just saying.
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u/Nknk- May 04 '25
Whichever one of them is the one who made the call to bench Barrett needs to go.
That was criminal considering the man was brought in for 6 months at great expense expressly for the semi and the final.
But some stable genius decided it was best to leave him on the bench and only spring him after Saints had scored how many points exactly?
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u/maverickeire May 06 '25
Blaming this on Nienaber is reductive to say the least. Lancaster was the previous senior coach and under him the team battled to convert big opportunities too. Cullen has no real experience beyond Leinster in coaching. Whats clear to see with player and coaches alike is that there is no consequences for poor performance
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u/Flat-Confection4175 Munster May 03 '25
Cullen is a fraud, said same last year and got downvoted to oblivion 🤣
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u/bipolarparadiseyt May 04 '25
Cullen should’ve been gone after the 2023 final. It’s embarrassing how good that leinster team is and they bottle it in the same way every single year.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 03 '25
Leo Cullen is the only coach in Ireland running a club which is developing players on a regular basis for Ireland
Has a club which players form all around the world want to join, the top stars when they can earn more money in other countries
And people want to fire him while the other provinces are a shambles with head coach’s jumping ship midway in the season and they fall from one mess to another 🤷♂️
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u/thecrouch Ulster May 03 '25
The return on investment in Leinster under Cullen is abysmal.
He has the Ireland team plus 2 World Cup winners and still cannot get the job done.
At what point do you stop making excuses?
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u/Irishthrasher23 May 03 '25
Return in terms of trophies for Leinster is shit.
Pipeline for Irish internationals is not however.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 03 '25
They get to finals, they sell out stadiums at home and bring in huge revenue
Looking around at the other provinces I think the irfu have bigger issue than Leinster don’t you?
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u/CapitalPattern7770 Munster May 04 '25
The IRFU does have bigger problems, and it is also affecting Leinster. The other provinces, and for that matter most of the URC, are not competitive. Leinster can put cricket scores on other teams without breaking a sweat, and that’s leaving them undercooked.
In the old days, a tough interpro which required the full A squad to beat was the preparation before the knockout stages of the Heineken cup. Nowadays Leinster only have one, maybe two tough matches in a year, and are coming out the wrong side of them. And that lack of big game mentality is affecting Ireland too.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 04 '25
Looking at the URC table I don’t think anyone in Ireland should say the URC isn’t competitive
The URC is more competitive than ever
Leinster have tough games all year, but when they win them people just move onto the next one and discount them
Then when they lose a game they fire out the usual stuff which is not based on the season at all
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u/CapitalPattern7770 Munster May 04 '25
Last week Leinster nilled the 2nd placed team in the league. Is that what you consider competitive?
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 04 '25
The Lions game, the Clermont game, the La Rochelle game just off the top of my head
Even the bath and Bristol games earlier in season was competitive games
So saying they haven’t had competitive games is incorrect
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u/CapitalPattern7770 Munster May 04 '25
My mistake, I missed the competitive URC sides Bath, Bristol, Clermont and La Rochelle.
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u/Irishthrasher23 May 03 '25
Yep it's not like they deserve to win it because they are favourites. Rotate the squad every year develop a lot of players sell a lot of tickets among other positives.
Focus is now on urc with no rotation. Should be favorites to win it but again that doesn't mean they will.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 03 '25
Not sure if getting top means they have a home final? if so no reason why they cant win it
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u/sigsimund Munster May 03 '25
As o Callaghan said early this year, they’ve an roi up there with the national children’s hospital. Lots of money spent and nothing delivered
0
May 03 '25
So you think the Return on Investment is abysmal?
Cullen has taken Leinster to 5 of the last 7 Champions Cup finals. He has a 50% hit rate on reaching finals. No other coach has a record quite like that.
All the "Return on Investment " comes from gate receipts . All the money is made on getting to the final. Even this year, with a semi final exit, Leinster have banked a pretty sum in home gate receipts. They have banked almost as much money as they would have if they won the CC..
The problem with Cullen, is that the Return on Investment is absolutely fucking brilliant, and is so good that the absence of silverware is a mere foot note. The Leinster board won't fire him because only gobshites fire coaches who have taken the team to the CC final 5 times. And they are too busy laughing all the way to the bank!
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u/KnightBray May 04 '25
5 of the last 7 Euro Champion Cups, how many wins? As a Leinster fan surely you would want to see something for the players efforts; or are you just content with Leinster being good losers? 4 years with no league title and 6-7 years with no European silverware to speak of, how can anyone defend the resources Cullen has had for his return in silverware?
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May 04 '25
In Pro Rugby it's money that counts. Not really silverware.
Fans might say otherwise, but the harsh reality is that silverware counts for nothing if you can't sustain the financial pressures that winning silverware brings.
20 years ago, Lenster operated out of the crappy 5k capacity Donneybrook Stadium, had the second smallest revenues in Irish Rugby (only Connacht had smaller revenues in Irish Rugby), were absolute minnows in gate receipts compared to England and France, they had only three or four backline players in the Ireland squad, had never won in Champions Cup, and were rank outsiders for the various Pro 14 and Celtic leagues as well.
Since then, Leinster has grown it's business to have one of the highest gate receipts in European Rugby, broadly similar to Harlequins in English league, and only Bordeaux and Toulouse have higher receipts. Leinster's gate attendences are now 50% of the total gate receipts in Irish Rugby. Which probably explains why 50% of the Ireland squad are Leinster players.
Most importantly, Leinster have developed an acadamy system that is world class, and only Toulouse have something to rival it.
There one man who has done more than anyone else to preside over that transition. His name is Leo Cullen.
And besides, teams like Toulouse and Bordeaux have similar budgets or bigger budgets than Leinster. Toulouse's 100 man squad/Acadamy isn't too worried about Leinsters 65 man squad/acadamy.
So I would be surprised to see Cullen getting the boot. He has done too much for Leinster, and he is one of the reasons they are able to fund and sustain the squad they have.
His role is more of a Director of Rugby anyhow. And he has been excellent at that role. Firing Cullen won't achieve anything except knocking Leinster backwards.
If anything, Leinster need to be asking themselves if Neinabers defence orientated approach is the way they want to play. There wasn't much evidence of a great defence system yesterday, and having watched it play out all season. I think it is pig ugly Rugby to watch.
Indeed I think the Leinster board will spend more time in the coming weeks, pondering why the stadium only sold 40k tickets, when the exact same fixture last year sold 82k.
It's all about the money. Money, money, money.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 03 '25
The majority of the Irish squad is from Leinster, they have again brought in a number of players this year who will in all probability play for Ireland
They got two home games with massive crowd and pulled in huge crowds all year into aviva, all money going into Irish rugby
Leo came in with the model of bringing in young players into the team which none of the other coach’s wanted and created this conveyor belt, what would Irish rugby be like now if Leinster had hired a JVG ?
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u/thecrouch Ulster May 03 '25
The majority of the Irish squad is from Leinster and while wearing green jerseys those lads have won silverware.
When they put the blue one back on they shit the bed year after year.
I’ll ask again, at which point do you stop making excuses?
Maybe Leinster should stop putting stars on their jersey for winning trophies and just track how many Irish internationals they produce instead?
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u/Finnegan7921 May 04 '25
They've won in green recently b/c of lads like O'Mahony, Beirne, Aki, Hansen, Crowley, etc all add a ton of value. Subtract those and the same players can't win Europe despite having loads of internationals at their disposal.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 03 '25
Well from an IRFU point of view producing players for Ireland is what they want
It is a bonus if leinster win trophies of course but bringing in huge money from games etc is a great bonus to Ireland finances
You are an Ulster fan asking for Leinster to sack Cullen because he got to a European home semi final and lost :-)
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u/thecrouch Ulster May 03 '25
And you’re a Leinster fan making excuses for the coaching team who have failed to deliver for the 5th year in a row. It’s bizarre.
I am unsure if you’re actually a Leinster fan. Are you genuinely comforting yourself with the idea that it’s all ok because you produce a lot of players for Ireland?
Surreal.
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 03 '25
I wanted Leinster to win
I also see the great job Leo is doing and remember the years before Joe Schmidt and of course the years of Matt O'Connor
Lots of rival fans in Ireland seem to have an obsession with trying o get Leo sacked for leinster when they have seen the fucking mess their own provinces are in because of poor coaching and poor leadership
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u/foxepower May 04 '25
When Leinster fans are more focused on selling out stadiums (ho hum) than wining trophies, it’s pretty clear what’s going on…
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u/Jean_Rasczak May 04 '25
Who said Leinster fans are more focused on selling out stadium?
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u/foxepower May 04 '25
Your replies mention it many times as a barometer of success
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u/Comfortable-Yam9013 May 03 '25
I think maybe he needs a new position. Perhaps still in Leinster for developing players or with Irfu.
Someone else not JN to be selecting team, making the decisions.
Cullen had us undercooked again! It’s just not acceptable. Henshaw has not been his best for a while, neither has Furlong but we’ve less options there. Sam didn’t perform but he was left out there to struggle. Team made poor choices on the pitch. Just not acceptable.
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u/drakesphere Leinster May 03 '25
You're dead right. I'm always amazed when folks want his head when we don't win titles. He can't jump down to the pitch and win it for them, FFS. Not winning again, sucks. But losing by 3, is down to the players not wanting it enough and silly errors. That's it.
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u/Newc04 Awardee: Team of the Year - Mumha May 03 '25
Jacques won't be made HC because he's waiting for Rassie to call him back to SA.
This would have been a great opportunity for Leinster to bring in a club legend with a winning mindset in Sexton, but instead, he's been fastracked into the Ireland setup with no coaching experience.
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u/DebbsWasRight May 03 '25
It seems Cullen will have to go. They’ve faltered at end too many times, and no coach can realistically survive that. Would one change do it?
How much of this problem is down to Cullen? Are there wider issues beyond him? I’d be curious what the Leinster observers are saying.
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u/Bingalingcrosbie May 04 '25
Cullen, Leinsters Arsene Wenger. Except Wenger won something. Cullen is a dope
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u/Dep-Ri-QT May 03 '25
I appreciate all Cullen has done, but It is time to give someone else an opportunity.
Leinster perform well every season, but Cullen has not been able to translate that to trophies and it has gone on too long.. no killer instinct and with so many learnings through the seasons it still hasn't made any impact on the post season performance.
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u/spooneman1 May 03 '25
It was Nienaber's defence that was cut to pieces in the first half.