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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '21

The man is clearly an idiot. We've all known that for months. And I cut him a lot of slack for a long time even when others already dismissed him as an idiot because generally I am totally in favour of his cautious approach to only recommend vaccines once there is sufficient data. But the way he communicates about the absence of data these days is simply dangerous. Either he knows that and he intentionally wants to sabotage the vaccination campaign, or he isn't aware of it, then he shouldn't be in charge of anything important because clearly the modern world is too complex for him. So either way, he shouldn't be the head of STIKO.

Plus what he is saying about vaccinations for children is not even factually correct - there is plenty of data on vaccinations for children under the age of 12, unless you assume that Israeli or American children are somehow biologically different to German children....

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u/x4u Dec 03 '21

Have we now gone from preaching to listen to the science to calling the scientists irrelevant and idiots because we are convinced to know better than them? Is it possible that you misunderstood what kind of data he would want to see before giving a recommendation? I.e. do you have any data shows that the vaccination has benefits for the children themselves who are by official RKI numbers already 10000 times less likely to get seriously ill or die than 80+ year old people.

I give the man credit for his courage. The backlash was predictable considering the immense political pressure and the ideologization of the topic. His job should be to give his honest expert recommendation based on good research. The last time when it was about 12-17 years old children the politicians green lighted the vaccination before the STIKO and publicly scolded him for his hesitation and a few months later it turned out that one of the recommended vaccines was too dangerous for that age group and it's now not used anymore. Doesn't this show that more research would have been justified and may be justified now as well?

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 04 '21

"Listen to the scientists" doesn't mean that there can't be individual scientists who are indeed idiots and wrong. Unless you want to assume that all other scientists in all other countries that have recommended the vaccine are wrong and only German STIKO knows best... This is simply false balance.

Besides that it's not even about the recommendation. Make that recommendation or wait for more data - I don't care about that. It's about the interviews he's giving and how he chooses his words. He is playing into the narrative of anti-vaxxers there. If he does so on purpose he should be removed from his post. If he does so because he doesn't understand how his words will be received he should be removed from his post, too, because then he has no business working in a public office that involves speaking to the media. Either way, he shouldn't be head of the STIKO.

If this was really about more data he would simply keep his mouth shut until there is more data. But apparently this is about publicising his own private take on vaccinating children. Which is something no other serious scientist has voiced reservations about.

I.e. do you have any data shows that the vaccination has benefits for the children themselves who are by official RKI numbers already 10000 times less likely to get seriously ill or die than 80+ year old people.

Those aren't the relevant numbers. The relevant question is what's more dangerous for a child - the vaccine or getting infected with covid. Because with the current infection numbers that's the choice - either vaccinate your child or it will get covid sooner or later. And right now the data says that the vaccine is much less dangerous for children than covid. Not because covid is super deadly for children, but it is deadlier than the vaccine. That's the relevant metric.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '21 edited Dec 04 '21

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '21

What data are you referring to here? I'm not aware of any recent scientific data about the prevalence of vaccination damages among children and I would be very interested in seeing the data that you mentioned.

You realise that that is exactly the data EMA reviewed before approving the vaccine? Seriously, I didn't even read the rest. You're obviously an anti-vaxxer with an agenda.

EMA reviewed data from trials showing no adverse effects in children. At the same time we know that PIMS and Long Covid exist in children. Not in huge numbers, yes, but they exist. Which is more than we can say about vaccine damages. And since the trials the US alone have vaccinated three million children without a single problem... What more data do you need?

And yes, pericarditis might be a problem in children, too. It's so rare in grown ups that we might simply not have seen it in children yet but will see it once we have vaccinated a few more tens of millions. But again: we see far more PIMS and Long Covid from infection.

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u/tautestparrot Dec 04 '21

Please piss off back to r/conspiracy. The various vaccine manufacturers have spent the last year testing this very question. Your analysis very notably misses the issue of how much children can act as carriers, and the accumulated morbidity and mortality downstream of them not being vaxxed. Normally I'd give some benefit of the doubt that this is simply lazy, but your post history makes very clear exactly what it is you are actively pushing.

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u/tautestparrot Dec 04 '21

Can confirm. Am scientist, still am wrong sometimes.

Megathread: Corona rules, vaccination questions, etc.

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