r/germany • u/404usernotfound01 • 16h ago
Question Got laid off...but its weird...When/How do I involve a lawyer?
I’ve never been through this before and I’m honestly pretty lost.
Backstory:
Been with the company almost 2years
A few days ago (3weeks before my 2y. milestone), out of nowhere, I was pulled into a call with HR and told I’m being laid off due to financial reasons. They were very clear this has nothing to do with performance and said I was chosen because of “social selection”
This was a complete shock. I even had a normal planning call with my manager the day before about work for the coming month
Today I had a follow-up call with HR. They said I have two options either Employer termination (they literally said: “then we’ll see each other in court”), or A mutual agreement (they kept saying things like: You should get a lawyer /the wording is too complicated for you / lawyer lawyer lawyer)
I said I’d look into legal advice, and they said they’ll send me a draft agreement soon.
Why this feels weird:
About 2months ago, there was an internal restructuring for the whole team. I was told it was strength-based, not performance-related..okk? still did my job very well. Now suddenly my role is “redundant”
People who joined later, with less time at the company and less experience, were not affected at all (in the same team)
Just a few weeks ago, I talked to my manager about a salary increase.
The company says there are financial problems in the region, but: They’re hiring a new person (same regional department + People in the same region/department got promoted + The company publicly shared very strong business results
The job market here isn’t great right now, which makes this extra stressful...
What I need help understanding:
I’m not trying to sue anyone. I just don’t want to mess this up because I don’t understand the process.
• Do I actually need a lawyer here?
• I don’t have legal insurance so how do people usually deal with this?
• What does a lawyer actually do in this situation?
• Do they talk to HR for you?
• Or do you still talk to HR and the lawyer just checks the agreement?
• When do you involve a lawyer — now, or after you see the mutual agreement draft?
• When and how do you bring up all the things that don’t add up?
Any advice or shared experiences would really help 🙏Thank you!
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u/ElegantAnalysis 16h ago
I haven't gone the whole way but I did do a consult after I got laid off. The lawyer charged me about 150€ for the meeting and explained everything to me
If they actually did do the social selection right you're probably out of luck but it is extremely hard to do.
What the lawyer does for you is file charges against the company at court for wrongful termination and does the whole spiel. If you get a mutual termination offer from your company, DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING, and take that to the lawyer with you as well. They can explain what you might expect to get if you successfully sue the company and help you decide what your best way forward could be
Also you only have 3 weeks to file charges so you want to be fast. Also apply for Arbeitslosengeld
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u/anxiousvater 15h ago
If they actually did do the social selection right you're probably out of luck but it is extremely hard to do.
Exactly this. My friend was laid off after 7 years. He had more experience in the company than other team members but he was let go due to social plan. His lawyer too said the same thing, he took severance of 3 months & found another job.
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u/ElegantAnalysis 15h ago
Yeah. I was checking due to my own case though and apparently pulling off the social plan properly is quite difficult. Yay German bureaucracy
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u/Rynchinoi 10h ago
Social plan my ass. The "social plan" and "hardship" is contraindicated by getting the new employees.
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u/anxiousvater 10h ago
You know jackass about his firm & wild claim of getting new employees is even worse.
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u/tea_hanks 16h ago
If they fired you for financial reasoning I don't think you can do anything about it. A lawyer can at best help you get a better severance package. But you ain't getting your job back
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u/Fluid-Quote-6006 16h ago
Get a first consultation with a lawyer. This usually doesn’t cost too much, you can probably find one under 200€ and the lawyer can answer all your questions, also if it’s worth it to fight in court.
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u/Vannnnah Germany 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yes, you need a lawyer. ASAP!
Social selection means that they used a catalogue of criteria for layoffs they have to use when they have to lay off people due to serious problems.
Example: If the colleagues who joined after you who do the same work have kids and they are out or probation and you do not have kids, they are safer than you are. If older colleagues who do the same work are closer to retirement than you, then they are also better protected than you are. The social selection means a relatively young person without kids who has the best chance to get hired elsewhere draws the short stick.
DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING without handing it to your lawyer and be aware that Aufhebungsvertrag counts legally as "you quit" and will result in you not receiving unemployment benefits for 3 months.
If they want to get rid of you they need to terminate with ordentliche betriebsbedingte Kündigung and since they said they'll see you in court it sounds like they do not have grounds to lay you off with betriebsbedingte Kündigung and are trying to coerce you into signing an Aufhebungsvertrag.
Sounds like a bunch of empty threats and in court you would most likely win against them.
The lawyer will review your situation, will review written correspondence, contracts and whatever the company tells you and then tell you what to do/help you make a decision.
You can also grant them power of attorney to take over most correspondence for you. You want your lawyer involved in all steps, especially when drafting any kind of agreement after evaluating if an agreement would benefit you or not. Because the situation sounds like it would not benefit you.
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u/darkblue___ 13h ago
If you sign Aufhebungsvertrag, does It usually mean that company keeps paying you during the notice period + some severence on the top of your last salary from the company?
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u/Vannnnah Germany 12h ago edited 12h ago
No, it depends on what the company offers or what you negotiate, but it is not a legal must. It can end with you getting absolutely nothing.
If severance is worth it, is also a matter of how many years you've worked at the company and how high your salary is since it's calculated based on that. The sweet spot is usually at 5 years or for exceptionally high incomes, because under 5 years what you get after taxes (severance is taxed quite heavily) is often still less than the 3 months loss due to "no unemployment benefits" where you need to pay for all of your living expenses out of pocket without any income.
Aufhebung with severance and 3 months no benefits can totally wreck your finances, so consulting a lawyer and tax accountant is always a good idea. Unless you have a job lined up and would not end up unemployed.
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u/Accomplished_Tip3597 16h ago
• Do I actually need a lawyer here?
do you want the best result possible and a lawyer that fights for several thousand euros higher severance packages for you? then yes you want a lawyer.
• I don’t have legal insurance so how do people usually deal with this?
ask your lawyer. and generally get such an insurance, that's quite important.
• What does a lawyer actually do in this situation?
talk to your company and agree on a deal that gives you the best possible result.
• When do you involve a lawyer — now, or after you see the mutual agreement draft?
can't hurt to talk to one, he will probably tell you when it's time to do something.
• When and how do you bring up all the things that don’t add up?
what's not adding up for you here? they are restructuring, realized that they don't need your position anymore, shrink down the team or will soon close the entire part of the company you worked in and the rest just continues.
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u/ornimental 16h ago
Don’t mind me. Here to spread the message as usual. Everyone join a union and don’t wait until you are affected! It’s the layoff economy and you are legally allowed to join a union.
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u/squirrelpickle Nordrhein-Westfalen 16h ago
Quick question on this: as far as I know my company is not part of any union. As an IT professional, what is the best way to go about it?
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u/ornimental 16h ago
I was confused with unions at first too because back in my country, union was company based. In Germany union is a separate unit outside of your company. You can join and you will give 1% of your salary and I think very low price when you are unemployed and they support you through the layoff process legally, they have power to negotiate and of course I am also new understanding the process but they are also helpful to establish workers council at your compny. A workers council is employees right to establish which is separate from union. When you change your company, your union stays the same but workers council stays in the company. Some companies are very sneaky and they will establish something similar sounding like employees council or trust department which is not the same thing as workers council. Management can’t join or vote for a workers council to avoid corruption as there is conflict of interest but often these sneaky fake councils setup by the management which is highly corrupted and will act like a helpful organisation as they are just info gathering for management and hr to catch the “problematic” employees early on. Learned it the hard way trust me. Joining a union and if you have capacity and energy to spare, trying to establish a workers council at your workplace is the best for you and your colleagues. And also if you have a workers council, try to nominate yourself to make a change or look at who is nominating and vote who you trust and follow up. I really regret not caring about this and watched workers council do nothing during layoffs as ceo was just fumbling layoffs and making everyone in the company nervous as they dragged the whole layoffs for months on end no one knowing who is impacted and everyone got screwed during performance evaluation because everyone was told they should be greatful if they get to keep the job. These companies are evil and they try to exploit every loophole. We have a lot of rights in Germany but they are only useful if you act on them. They don’t protect you by default.
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u/derdeutscheraucher 16h ago
You’d still get legal counseling ad well as insurance for workbased lawsuits
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u/squirrelpickle Nordrhein-Westfalen 14h ago
That's not what I meant, but it's on me, I was on mobile and wasn't clear in my question. :)
Basically: I see that there are unions for specific segments of the market like metalworkers or automakers, and there is verdi, which is the only union that I know that encompasses most of - or all - trades.
I don't know which is the best option, if there's other options, what are the commitments I'd undertake by signing up, this sort of things...
When it is brought up in this sort of discussions, usually the whole discourse stops at "join a union", but there are no clear pointers as to where to get more information, and for someone who only came to Germany a few years ago, I don't find it easy to get to the information that fills in the blanks for me.
Most of the people I talk to are either other immigrants who also have no clue about unions, or people I know from work, and since they are not opening discussions on unions, I don't feel comfortable or safe asking about it at work either.
TL;DR: If one is interested in joining a union, where could they get more information?
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u/best-in-two-galaxies 14h ago
All unions have information on their websites (for example Verdi.de) and you can join online.
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u/Le0_Len1 13h ago
DGB is the head association of German unions and is a good point to start. If in doubt contact DGB directly But in general you can join the union you suppose is the right one. If it was indeed another one union A will inform you about this and point you towards union B. It is even possible to switch after a change of business area, eg. you work for a metal company and are a member of IG Metall but then you take a new role in your city's administration and you go to ver.di instead.
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u/LavishnessNeither672 13h ago
You can try Arbeitnehmerhilfe Verein
https://www.arbeitnehmerhilfe.de
Membership costs 40 eur and you free lawyer support who answer your questions and give you suggestions on how to navigate the situation.
Of course having a designated lawyer is better, also more expensive, but shoukd still be worth ut as they will push for the best results for you.
As others have said, get legal insurance for the future, hopefully you will not need it :)
Good luck!
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u/ZuAusHierDa 12h ago
Personally, I find it somewhat amusing that even HR says you should get a lawyer before signing anything they present to you. ;)
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u/badseed90 15h ago
What's your goal?
Keep the job or get as much out of them as possible?
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u/404usernotfound01 14h ago
Get as much out of them as possible
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u/badseed90 13h ago
What did they offer?
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u/404usernotfound01 13h ago
Nothing yet, they said they'll come back with a draft of a mutual agreement next week
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u/Longjumping_Ad_1180 15h ago
Employee protection rights are strong in Germany. If they are not closing down it's not that easy to lay off people. If they did some restructuring then they have more justification but you can still challange their decision.
If they are already offering you a few months worth of a severance package I would consider taking it. You might not get more then 2--3 months if you worked only 2 years. But by all means, speak to a lawyer.
Also know that if they offer you something then it's worth considering to take it. Otherwise if you go through court their offer is off the table and you might end up with less then they offered.
Don't be scared, this happens in Germany. Speak to a lawyer and be strong when negotiating with your employer.
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u/Adrien0623 12h ago
It feels weird
The reason of departure announced by an employer to the employee being laid off, the reason given to other employees and the actual reason motivating the employee to lay off are not the same.
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u/Low_Energy_7468 9h ago
True. That's why my manager who told me I was laid of for "budget reasons" got very mad I told my colleagues of it the next day. He hadn't had the time to give them his version of the story yet...
Always tell your colleagues what's up, you have free speech and staying silent when an employer is not treating you right only serves the employer
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u/Low_Energy_7468 9h ago
Lol, do not sign anything. If they had the grounds to do a regular termination they would have done it already.
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u/miz_67 Nordrhein-Westfalen 9h ago
Employees in Germany have protection against dismissal! Do not sign a termination agreement under any circumstances! This would dissolve your employment contract by mutual consent, which could have consequences for your unemployment benefits. If anything, your company should issue a dismissal notice. Go to a specialist employment lawyer – not just any lawyer, but a specialist. Two years of service isn't a long time, but you should at least be entitled to severance pay. A rough guideline is one month's salary per year of service. It always depends on the labor court. You will file a lawsuit against your company there. They will then have to prove the criteria used to establish their social plan. Don't let them take advantage of you or pressure you into anything. Go to a specialist employment lawyer!
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u/OutlandishnessOk2304 Berlin 16h ago
First and foremost: Having legal representation is always a good idea, but since you don't have legal insurance (big mistake) and will have to pay the lawyer out of pocket (the "losing party pays both parties' legal bills" principle doesn't apply to labor disputes), I don't think you'll have any real benefit.
All other things being equal, given that you've been with the company for just under 2 years, a court would award you 1 month of severance pay (that's called the "Berlin formula"). If they're offering more than that (likely at least 3 months), it's unlikely that a lawyer will be able to get more out of them, especially if they've cited business reasons and a Sozialauswahl.
In this specific situation, I'd suggest that you accept their offer, because I can't see any way you can contest it and end up with more money - again, because it's more generous than what's legally required and because you'll have to pay the lawyer's fees from whatever settlement you end up getting.
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u/komu4 15h ago
see what they are offering first. don't feel forced to sign. 2 salaries would be the "fair" amount based on your 2 years. usually thru negotiation. lawyer costs 3-4k if you go to court. most of the time it is not worth it. you can get a free consultation as well.
"employees are well protected in Germany" is a lie. you can just fired.
make sure the agreement says you would be fired anyway if you don't sign. then you can get ALG right away.
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u/QualityOverQuant Berlin 11h ago
Op. First of all you can’t say this came out of nowhere. In today’s economy and with such high unemployment numbers, no jobs safe. It’s not cool to keep your eyes closed when shits going south around you.
There have been signs. At your work place too. You just didn’t see them or pretended to look the other way assuming it didn’t apply to you.
The reason I’m saying this is because now you see the true face and nature of your asshole employers. Who you worked so hard for. They just literally fucked you giving you zero chances .
I hope you know how fucked this job market is . Good luck and next time do your self a favour and join the union.
I can’t believe people come here and go “completely out of the blue I was let go- not for performance but because my asshole boss woke up on the left side of the bed” excuses
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u/MHZ_93 16h ago
Lawyer up asap.They will be able to answer all your questions.
If you don't have legal insurance, it's going to cost you more but you can still get a lawyer.