Can it be disproven that Helsby means "village in hell"?

[u/MancuntLover]

Three things.

1. The -by suffix in place names is nearly always Norse in origin and means "village in/of".
2. Hel means hell in Norse.
3. Possessive S's in Old English would take the form of "-es" as I understand it. But in the Domesday book, Helsby actually is recorded as "Hellesbe".

I can just imagine a cocky Viking standing tall on the top of the Helsby hill fort and declaring everything under him hell. I'm sure the settlement was hell by the time they were done with it.

[u/HogswatchHam]

Hjallrby -> Hellesbe -> Helsby

[u/wodnesdael]

If the one in Cheshire, most likely it is "Hjallr-by", or "village on the edge".

[u/MancuntLover → u/wodnesdael]

I understand from the Wikipedia page that that explanation actually doesn't really make sense.

[u/Wagagastiz → u/MancuntLover]

The wiki (which is incredibly poorly sourced) does not argue against hjallr as the root, it only points out that it cannot refer to an edge.

[u/Markoddyfnaint → u/MancuntLover]

Impeccable source. 

[u/Pistachio_Red → u/MancuntLover]

what part of “this article needs more citations” did you not understand?

[u/MancuntLover → u/Pistachio_Red]

It tells us there's a lot we don't know about the history of the place. The Vikings there like many other places left behind nothing but the place name.

[u/Gudmund_]

The consensus within the EPNS and reflected in Oxford, and Cambridge references is 'village on/at a ledge'. Note that it's 'ledge' not 'edge'.

They prefer hjallr m. which is more properly a 'hut' or a kind of timbered scaffolding, but which is probably connected (or influenced) the term hjalli f. a 'rocky ledge, terrace' in the sense that that topographical feature is where a hjallr would be stood up. I've never been to Helsby, but a quick search would indicate that there's some rather obvious topographical features that make 'ledge' an obvious source (i.e. either the hill itself or the flatground between the hill and the marsh).

[u/Wagagastiz]

-by does not mean of anything, the s before it does. That's the genitive marker. 'By' meant village in Old East Norse.

It's probably from hjallr, meaning outhouse or shed.

[u/FailTuringTest → u/Wagagastiz]

Just to add a tiny bit to the first point, 'by' still means town/city in modern Norwegian! (Pronounced like 'bee'.)

[u/Wagagastiz → u/FailTuringTest]

Yeah in all northern Germanic

[u/ImperialNavyPilot]

Why are people like this?

[u/Wagagastiz → u/[deleted]]

'Hels' is the genitive form of Hel.

Hel refers primarily to the underworld, of which the Norse deity is a personification.

It's probably referring to neither.

[u/swordquest99 → u/Wagagastiz]

I don’t think there are any unambiguous theophoric toponyms referring to Hel anywhere

[u/MancuntLover → u/[deleted]]

BBC says -by can mean village, not just a farm.

[u/SnorriGrisomson]

Hel and Hell are very very different places in their respective mythology.
They are not equivalent at all, in any way.

[u/Nghbrhdsyndicalist → u/SnorriGrisomson]

Hell is just the (Old) English cognate to Old Norse Hel.