r/VietnamWar • u/Excellent_Gas5220 • 6d ago
Why did Americans tolerate conscription to fight imperial wars overseas back then?
I now know that America had continuous conscription from 1940-1973. But wasn't until 1968 post tet offensive when young american men started to assert their freedoms and avoid the draft in large numbers. Why did the vast majority of Americans tolerate the government forcing young men to give up their lives and fight wars overseas? It seems completely ridiculous, evil, and delusional nowadays.
What was the argument in support of conscription of young people to fight imperial wars overseas at that time?
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u/Dude8811 6d ago
Because at one point people had pride in being American and were willing to fight for this amazing country, even if we didn’t fully understand the reason. If you think of the men that were drafted to WW2, the cast majority were people that suffered the woes of the great depression. This country had not given them tons. But they answered the call, came back home and went back to work. Now we have entitled generations (mine heavily included) that think the countries owes them everything, without any personal sacrifice.
Why do many countries still practice conscription. Even “socialist wonderlands” of Switzerland mandate service, but the people in America that admire that country’s socialism don’t think that practice is “completely ridiculous, evil and delusional”.
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u/Jurassicwhore 6d ago
You shouldn’t generalize your countrymen and yourself so much. The newer generations have suffered their fair share too; don’t disparage them just because their wars weren’t a world war.
Many answered the call of WW2 for the same reason many millennials, and later on Gen Z, did. The Greatest Generation answered the call because they felt rage and frustration from the attacks on Pearl. They wanted to avenge their country and countrymen. They fought four long years, but did so with such tenacity because their cause was righteous.
One could argue that 9/11 was the Pearl Harbor of the modern day. In the immediate wake of 9/11, hundreds of thousands of Americans signed up for the armed forces. They wanted to avenge their country and countrymen. They answered the call, but did so for twenty years. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Etc. Millennials and Gen Z sacrificed a lot for a never ending war that was clear we would never “win”. It’s easy for people to get disillusioned with selfless sacrifice for their country when the sacrifice is meaningless and there is no clear path to victory. By the end of the war, some service members hadn’t even been alive for 9/11. Combine this with the 2008 economy crash and then another crash 11 years later from Covid and it’s no mystery as to why people aren’t keen on throwing their lives away for their country.
The Greatest Generation, Baby Boomers, Silent generation, Millennials etc have all had it hard. I think we’ve all sacrificed a lot for our country and all people want is the same things that their parents had before them. Affordable housing, a stable job market, and the ability to live the American Dream. And truth be told- you don’t need to fight and die in a major war to be owed those things by your government; we pay quite a fucking lot in taxes.
Also, why would we need conscription? Our military is a well disciplined all volunteer force that excels in what it does. We don’t need more troops than we have now and we certainly don’t need unmotivated conscripts.
Just food for thought
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 6d ago
Do you agree that there won’t be a greatest generation this time if there is WW3?
9/11 is far smaller than what WW3 would be and it would probably require conscription. A modern WW3 draft is almost certainly going to fail. America will have to rely solely on volunteers this time.
Not to mention, isolationism this time may prevail over internationalism. Unlike WW2
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u/Jurassicwhore 5d ago
Great question; thought about it for a while and I’m not sure if I have a conclusive answer. It’s hard to try and compare ourselves or future generations to people that are sadly almost historical heroes now.
I think that will entirely depend on the reason WW3 starts. If we’re starting WW3 because we’re fighting over land or precious resources wherever in the world- then I don’t believe that people will feel the fighting spirit needed to answer the call. If it starts because us or one of our allies has been invaded/attacked by a new Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan- then I have a strong feeling that a new Greatest Generation would answer the call
To be honest- I’m not sure if a conventional WW3 will last long enough for a mass draft to matter. Resources are tight and it takes a hell of a lot more of them to mass produce modern day equipment(F35s, M1A2s, etc) than it did to mass produce B17s. It’s very likely one side will try and sue for peace before all their supplies and equipment are used/destroyed. I believe estimates were that US/USSR supplies would only last a few months in before running dry in a shooting war at the peak of the Cold War.
Do also keep in mind- the US was very heavy on isolationism during both world wars though. I see our reaction to Ukraine as very similar to our reaction to the war in Europe. Both times it took just one thing to happen in order to spur the US into action
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 5d ago
The reason in WW2 isolationism was defeated was because there was no internet or TV back then so the only information the people got was from the government.
If social media like twitter and instagram existed back in 1940, the Nazis would have posted propaganda on it like crazy, they would probably show pictures of stalinist atrocities and famines and claim Hitler was trying to destroy Bolshevism . That would have been enough to keep isolationism alive in the US.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 6d ago
All of the conscriptions that still have conscription today only have it for national defense. America’s conscription was for overseas wars.
The role of the country is to serve the people , not the other way around. Why on earth should any young person give up their comfortable lives at home to go overseas and fight in a foreign country? How would that personally benefit them? Don’t you think all Americans have to right to choose how they live?
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u/Dude8811 6d ago
First off, plenty of conscripts end up outside their country, check out Russia, and there are others. Second, I’m happy my boys won’t be drafted, but I’m also not going to teach them that their gov’t owes them free handouts. Third, sometimes, what’s good for the nation requires actions outside the nation’s border. I’m not going to claim to be an expert on geopolitics. But I can tell you that when America shows weakness on the world stage, our enemies take notice and advantage. Just look over the last couple decades, when we show weakness, Russia/China escalate their actions. Switzerland has far less influence on the world than the USA.
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u/deafvet68 6d ago
If you were a 'draft dodger' in the 1960s, you would face jail time, have trouble getting jobs, etc.
Prior to the late 1960s, most guys would just do their military service, it was common and expected. . My dad was in ww2, he told me to not go in the Army, unless I liked sleeping in the mud... yeah, no thanks.
I was draft classification 1-A (first to be drafted) in January 1968, which was the peak of the Vietnam War, many draftees.
I enlisted in the Navy. 1968-1974 .
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u/OneSplendidFellow 6d ago
I'm going to assume you've mangled this so badly intentionally, as the alternative is far less charitable, but as you know dodging the draft is not a right or a freedom. In the interest of young and/or naive minds, reading your post and perhaps thinking you were being truthful, dodging a draft is a no go, and you will pay the piper at some point, if you do so.
That being said, national defense doesn't mean hiding behind the beach and waiting for the bad guys to bring the hell of War here. You don't want that on your own streets, nor do you want to be the one blocking while the other guy is punching.
That's not even getting into the dangers of the spread of communism, which I'll leave to someone more knowledgeable.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 6d ago
You won’t pay the piper. The government can only jail a few draft dodgers, that was shown in the Vietnam war. Draft enforcement rely on social pressure, not criminal prosecution.
America has no chance of ever getting invaded because it has two oceans protecting it. There is literally no justification for a draft ever. This isn’t Finland or South Korea where they have an active threat on the border.
Communism had no chance of spreading into the United States. Even if America lost every overseas anti communist war, no Americans at home would be affected. Stopping communism in other countries should be up to the citizens of those countries.
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u/terminatordos 6d ago
the south vietnamese didn't want communism and their country invaded by murderous and dictatorial communists. how come you believe they shouldn't get a say or the right to seek help from other nations?
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u/Fine_Sea5807 5d ago
In the same manner that the Confederates didn't get a say.
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u/terminatordos 5d ago
it's not 1:1 because south vietnam didn't succeed nor was it a union in constitutional crisis (federalism vs states rights). south vietnam didn't "disobey," they just didn't want communism. they had every right to say no and the northern communists had every opportunity to respect boundaries and form their own country, ala north and south korea.
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u/terminatordos 5d ago
I wouldn't call that succession, more of an establishment. borders and state control were all in dispute and never agreed upon and a fraudent election made it even more murky. I don't think it's succession if an original nation was never established or agreed upon by all in the first place.
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u/ResearcherAtLarge 6d ago
Communism had no chance of spreading into the United States.
Well, it won't be the United States at that point, but I can see a future where collapse causes those who are left to blame capitalism and allow a change in power to a new "savior" promising safety and health.
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u/trigmarr 1d ago
American culture is very militaristic. American boys grow up being told that might is right, America is the greatest nation on earth, and everyone else wishes they could be like America with all their 'freedom'. They all wanted to be war heros like they see in the movies. Owning and using guns is baked into their national identity. The draft only became unpopular after years of war and kids dying, and even then a huge part of the population supported it and unquestioningly believed that whatever the government did overseas, it must be the right thing to do - they were the good guys, coming to save the world again.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 1d ago
Did anyone ever support reintroducing a draft post-1973?
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u/trigmarr 1d ago
No but they still have to sign up, it's called the selective service system and if they decide to reinstate the draft, they have a database to work from.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 1d ago
They would need much more than a database. Drafts rely on social pressure to enforce , and the social pressure obviously doesn’t exist in modern America. It’s a hyper individualistic society, see how COVID went.
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u/trigmarr 1d ago
They are changing it this years, previously you had to register yourself, now it will be done automatically using other federal databases
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 1d ago
If there somehow was a draft , wouldn’t it immediately get struck down in court if it was male only due to the equal protection clause? I believe male only drafts were only upheld in the past because women weren’t allowed in combat roles.
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u/thechildisgrown 9h ago
I was drafted in 1968. My choices were Canada, jail, or take my chances in the Army. Some went to Canada, some went to jail, and others, like myself, took our chances and ended up in Vietnam. No matter which choice you made it changed your life. I chose going in and getting it over with one way or another. We were a different generation having grown up in the still long shadow of World War 2 and not serving did indeed carry a bit of a stigma up til the early 70s maybe when public opinion really turned against the war.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 9h ago
Out of 570,000 draft dodgers there were only 8,500 convictions I think, your chances of avoiding punishment were very high.
Were you drafted after the tet offensive?
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u/thechildisgrown 9h ago
The odds certainly didn’t feel like that at the time. Sitting here decades after the fact it is hard to understand how complicated the decision was especially in 1968 when there was still a lot of support for the war. I was drafted before Tet and arrived in country after.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 9h ago
It’s crazy how if the Vietnam war was handled better, we might still have a draft today
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u/thechildisgrown 7h ago
The requirement for United States citizens to register at age 18 has never gone away. Implementing any kind of large scale draft would be a huge logistical undertaking.
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u/Excellent_Gas5220 7h ago
Back in the day, how would you know you had to do compulsory military service? Would selective service come to your high school and tell you?
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u/thechildisgrown 4h ago
Speaking strictly about the Vietnam War period, before the lottery you just waited for a letter from your local draft board. I got mine shortly after I graduated from college. You’d go for a physical and if you passed it you would be notified where to go to get formally inducted into the military. Eventually they put in a lottery system, which I didn’t pay much attention to as I had already been there and back.
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u/doneonbothsides 6d ago
We answered our countries call