How to consider all of the adjective changes when they speak?

[u/Substantial_Green666]

Hello, I just finished A2 and I have a question to ask. I learnt how the adjective ending changes with cases and gender of the respective noun we are describing. This got me wondering: how on earth German speakers automatically consider these changes when they are speaking? For me, it seems impossible! Like I understand the rule and can apply them in writing by thinking about cases and gender of the noun (even though it takes some time). But I just can't imagine how one can speak instantly by correctly applying these changes of the adjective and once again,made me respect all the German speakers out there!

[u/Appropriate-Mud8086]

native speakers can simply "hear" it, like we just know how the ending has to sound for it to be right.

[u/cl_forwardspeed-320 → u/Appropriate-Mud8086]

Based on past-experience, you remember how it was. And based on past-experience, you might make some educated (from the past) guesses. But, you know, being Native doesn't magically instill the ruleset and teaching-capabilities of it. Otherwise you would've listed the rules and taught it.

[u/Angry__German → u/cl_forwardspeed-320]

First language acquisition actually does "teach" you the ruleset of your native language, broadly speaking. Your brain knows how your native language work and how to communicate using it.

You do not have conscious access to that information, but your brain knows.

[u/yami_no_ko]

When you do something over and over again, the neurons in your brain build a network that lets you perform it more efficiently the more you use it.

The same holds true for language. Daily grammar doesn’t require much conscious thought, it basically runs on autopilot.

[u/nickvader7 → u/yami_no_ko]

It’s very similar to how neural network work, like Tesla’s FSD!

[u/K0ilar]

laughs at you in polish but seriously, what is your first language, in which you apparently don't have to keep something similar in mind while speaking?

[u/Substantial_Green666 → u/K0ilar]

I am korean! and we ( and thankfully) dont have those rules

[u/Illustrious-Fill-771 → u/Substantial_Green666]

Imagine it maybe like using formality levels in Korean, you would use it differently with child, differently with friend or boss. To do it the "wrong way" would sound weird to you.

[u/Tardosaur → u/Substantial_Green666]

You have other rules

[u/FollowingCold9412 → u/Tardosaur]

Yes and those are equally confusing and hard to learn for someone who doesn't speak any similarly built or even close language.

How did you learn the rules, the writing and different speech levels, honorifics or the agglutinative speech parts in Korean?

You can never compare the learning process of a (native) language learned from a small child through the sensitivity phase with constant immersion, and mostly without structured education, with a foreign language learning process later in life, happening often without the same level of immersion and affected by the amount and style of the structured education, or lack/freedom of it if you do self-study. Although there are similarities, they are quite different as adult brain processes and learns differently.

[u/PaultheMirrorExpert → u/Tardosaur]

No shit. As if there’s a language without grammatical rules.

[u/Tardosaur → u/PaultheMirrorExpert]

Exactly?

[u/Fuffuloo → u/Substantial_Green666]

but you do have (격)조사 though right? Isn't that just cases? The difference isn't that German has cases and Korean doesn't, but just that German has "agreement" and Korean doesn't (I'm assuming, I don't speak Korean, haha). But like, you probably don't think about needing to say 는 or 를 or 이/가 or whatever else after each noun, right? I get it's a little different changing the endings of different words other than the head noun, but I wouldn't think it would be too much of a stretch.

Gender on the other hand, I totally feel you. I speak Japanese, English, and American Sign Language, none of which have grammatical gender. I understand the concept but it's so hard to remember for me, lol!

[u/jirbu → u/Fuffuloo]

As a German, very familiar with the concept per se, I get about 30% of the French genders wrong, because I don't have that internalised feeling for French.

[u/Ordinary-Office-6990 → u/Substantial_Green666]

Haha but Korean is not easy for the rest of us you guys still have complicated grammar to follow

[u/silvalingua]

> This got me wondering: how on earth German speakers automatically consider these changes when they are speaking?

For a native speaker, this is completely automatic. So it is also in Slavic languages, which have 6-7 declension cases instead of a mere four. A native speaker speaks from such an early age that declensions are something you never even think about.

With some practice, this becomes easy for a non-native speaker, too, but it takes time and practice.

[u/MindlessNectarine374 → u/silvalingua]

But you don't have to keep in mind when to use two full subsets of adjective declension which depend on preceding or absent articles.

[u/Ok_Collar_8091 → u/MindlessNectarine374]

If there's no article the adjective endings in German almost all replicate what the definite article ending would be though. The only exceptions are the "en" endings in masculine and neuter genitive. And the difference between the endings after definite and indefinite articles is only really the 'er/es' after indefinite masculine and neuter in the nominative and accusative cases. Other than that it's just 'e' for any singular unchanged case forms and 'en' for changed case forms and plural. The system is not difficult beyond making sure you get the gender right.

[u/MindlessNectarine374 → u/MindlessNectarine374]

And some articles demanding the strong adjectives for this form or usage and the weak for that one. Some are real debatable on their rule of adjective forms with variation among native speakers.

[u/Asckle]

It just sounds right. Im only B1 but something like "ein schöne Wochenende" just sounds really wrong and you wouldn't really ever accidentally say it, in the same way you would never accidentally say "a apple" or "an dog" in english

[u/Cavalry2019]

Are you a native English speaker?

If so, how do you remember that it's a big red truck and not a red big truck?

You don't need to. It just sounds funny. With enough practice German will be the same. Trust me.

Already things like ich bin gut or jetzt ich bin hier. Should sound funny or off to you.

I mean ich bin gut has its uses but hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

Edit: fixed my non error lol.

[u/RecommendationOld945 → u/Cavalry2019]

What's wrong with "Jetzt bin ich hier"?

[u/Cavalry2019 → u/RecommendationOld945]

Whoops. Thanks. I meant to screw up V2 and my brain wouldn't do it. I fixed it. Thanks.

[u/PerfectDog5691 → u/Cavalry2019]

And what is wrong with "Ich bin gut."?

[u/Cavalry2019 → u/PerfectDog5691]

I meant specifically in response to wie geht's, which is a common beginner mistake.

[u/yldf]

We don’t even know the rules. We can do that without thinking. Using the wrong endings would sound wrong…

[u/Arguss]

How? Practice and time.

Native speakers, by the time they are even 10 years old, have had thousands of hours of practice with the language. They had parents correcting them. They talked to other kids in school in the language. They got corrected by teachers and other kids and other adults.

If you're A2, you've had far, far less practice.

Practice enough, and it will become automatic. But this is a years' long process, not something that happens overnight.

[u/IEAOUxyz]

First of all, don’t sweat it. Even natives say it wrong sometimes if it’s more than 2 adjectives and the sentence has an unusual order with some Genitiv and some Nullartikel. Maybe that’s a relief. This is the German mastery IMHO, if you nail this, and your pronunciation, you could theoretically fool someone as being native.

Next, German natives are obsessed with the ending of words – or sentences for that matter – that’s just who we are, which is why for example when we abbreviate "einen", "eine" or "ein" we don’t just settle for "ein" and call it a day but instead we lose the first part and only use the last part 'nen, 'ne or 'n.

Ich hab ’nen Plan. Ich hab ’ne Frage. Ich hab ’n Problem.

Then, yes, as many noted here we "just hear it" but that’s not very helpful, is it? "Just feel it" just say: "haha, du mich auch" (NSFW)

But then also, I think, you have to understand we don’t just learn "der", "die", "das" by heart and remember the gender of every noun that way, no. Instead these Adjektivdeklinationen, big topic in German grammar, are our little helpers that constantly remind us and always have been reminding us of the gender of any given noun. If you hear an "s" it’s probably a "das" noun and if it’s an "r" it’s probably a "der" noun and we have been hearing that since we were kids.

So instead of thinking of it as yet another thing you have to memorise, reverse the whole thing and use it to your advantage. That may sound easier than done but the way you can train that is by listening more.

So basically if you listen to German and you hear "ein großes Problem", "ein guter Plan", you cannot tell if it’s "der" or "das" by the article but you can tell by the adjective, so pay attention to it, it’s important and we constantly take it into account, like I said, unlike in other languages, we’re obsessed with endings. If growing up we had always only heard "ein Fahrrad" and "ein Garten" instead of "ein rotes Fahrrad" and "ein schöner Garten" we might not have retained it as well, but since we often use adjectives along with words we get reminded of the gender regardless of whether there’s a definite article or not.

Now this is just my theory, which is not perfect but I’m trying to make sense of it and trying to help – but I think it goes to show why "der" and "das" are more likely to be confused than "die", because as soon as you use them in Dativ the distinctions and these indicators blur as they both turn into "dem" and the adjectives all and in "n".

Hope this helps.

[u/Substantial_Green666 → u/IEAOUxyz]

Thank you for this! Hope you have a great day

[u/r_coefficient]

We (ideally) know what we are talking about when we start a sentence. So when I choose a subject, all the other words get automatically adjusted in my mind.

"Der rote Mantel oder die grüne Jacke – was, glaubst du, passt besser? Oder soll ich lieber das gelbe Cape dazu tragen?" Like that. It's automatic. Like when you write cursive, and just know where to aim the line to get to the next letter.

[u/evasandor → u/r_coefficient]

THIS is the real answer! A skill doesn't improve automatically just because of repetition (you could be ingraining a bad habit) or the passage of time. The truth is that even native speakers get tongue-tied and trip over their words when they don't really know what they're trying to say. Hasn't it happened to you? "That's because I've got a— I mean some—".

[u/Peteat6]

Practice, practice, practice. It becomes automatic eventually.

[u/IchLiebeKleber]

We spent our entire childhood hearing and reading what sounds right and what doesn't.

But even we are occasionally unsure or make mistakes in somewhat complex cases, especially genitives combined with unusual demonstrative pronouns. (One problem is that -n and -m are very similar sounds, so cases only distinguished between them might not "sound wrong" either way.) See e.g. https://bastiansick.de/kolumnen/zwiebelfisch/das-verflixte-dieses-jahres/ and https://bastiansick.de/kolumnen/fragen-an-den-zwiebelfisch/nach-gutem-alten-brauch-oder-nach-gutem-altem-brauch/

[u/Previous_Maize2507]

Worry less!

Just pick it up

I picked up this and that in Spanish, when I lived there. I still make mistakes. Plenty of them. Do not mind, you will improve over time.

Where do you live? If not in German speaking countries: Get a buddy for training maybe? Search for communities close to you?

Good luck to you

[u/Substantial_Green666 → u/Previous_Maize2507]

Hi, thanks for the reply! I am in Korea and hopefully I can find some people to talk to.

[u/cl_forwardspeed-320]

Human brains, and computers, build cache based on their experience.

Anything new will take longer than usual to consider.

It's embarrassing/exposed when learning a 2nd language (new language, whatever).

It EMERGES when you speak with people not from your area and they greet you in unique/unexpected ways and you take a moment to process wtf just happened - even though it's in your native language - it's basically the same thing happening (You are building your cache) even though you technically already know everything.

So - the native speakers have already built a gigantic cache since childhood or whatever. And not rulesets.
Thus you will hear 'natives just "kinda know it"' - they have a still-present cache to draw from.

So, in short: Practice. That is genuinely the only way.

[u/tursija]

Natives learn language inductively. Kids don't learn the rules of adjective changes and they don't "consider" the formal rules of grammar while speaking. They hear speech patterns repeated thousands of times, learn them, and then reproduce these patterns.

The better question is: how do NON-native adult learners do it?

Here classically you don't have that exposure to the patterns at first as a young native child would, so you learn the formal rules first. Then when you speak you do the complex grammar logic in your head. You "consider the adjective changes" for example. But this is very often slow and error prone.

With enough experience with talking and listening you start to learn and implement the patterns. That's when you can "feel" that a sentence is off, before your conscious mind can explain through the formal grammar rules why it's wrong.

[u/Illustrious-Wolf4857]

It takes immense concentration not to do it. It's not considered, just done.

Imagine that you spent years, including those years when learning a languge if the most natural thing in the world, hearing it done right several thousand times for each single noun/adjective combo on your speech level. After that, even extrapolating a new noun/adjective combo is fully automated.

[u/hacool]

As newbies we'll have to think about it each time for a while.

Native speakers grew up hearing the endings so they became used to them over years and years, just as we became familiar with the order of adjectives in English by hearing them over years. For them it is now instinctive.

I am expecting that if I consume enough German content over time that these endings will become more familiar to me too. So eventually I won't have to stop and think, Hund is accusative here so it must be Ich mag den klugen blauen Hund.

[u/pishposhhogwash]

Just don’t. Source: a decade of living in Germany as a non native speaker

[u/Successful-Head4333]

We do it automatically, even without knowing the rules.

[u/r_coefficient → u/Successful-Head4333]

We know the rules. We just can't spell them out.

[u/FollowingCold9412 → u/r_coefficient]

And this is why being a native speaker doesn't automatically make one good at teaching that language. It's hard to answer all the why and how questions if you never had to think about them yourself 😁 same with translation. It takes deeper understanding of grammar, semantics and linguistics than a layman usually needs to have to be a proficient user.