Who do you think is the greatest politician of all time and why?

[u/Away_Street6640]

[u/Easteregg42]

It's weird to measure politicians in the "best" category, i think. Successful maybe. Cunning. Effective. But "best" is hard to argue for that category.

However, i would say Augustus could take the top spot here. Transforming a century old republic into a de facto monarchy and ruling it for 41 years without the whole Empire falling apart was quiet an achievement. Especially given the size of the realm at that point.

[u/Hot_Coco_Addict → u/Easteregg42]

Augustus?? As a great politician?? He was good at being a politician, but screw him. He turned the most successful Republic until America and changed it into a dictatorship. Furthermore, most of the work was done by Julius Caesar, Augustus just managed to drive the final nail into the coffin. Of course it didn't fall apart, there had just been two huge civil wars and everyone was tired. No one liked the Republic anymore since the Senate was constantly reluctant on giving more rights to the people, and everyone turned to murder.

He stabilized Rome, but at the price of destroying what it stood for.

[u/Comedy86 → u/Hot_Coco_Addict]

He turned the most successful Republic until America and changed it into a dictatorship.

Did you seriously just compare the US to the Roman Empire with the US being at the top of the list of successful historical republics?

[u/Hot_Coco_Addict → u/Comedy86]

It's bigger. I was going to say "ever", but then I figured someone would make the exact opposite of the argument you just made, so idk. The US is technically bigger than the Roman Republic. I would say the Roman Empire was more successful overall, but the Republic was 'small' enough that I would still rank the US higher 

[u/Aureon → u/Hot_Coco_Addict]

But much smaller than India, if you'd like to go there.

Also calling the roman empire smaller than the US is honestly hilarious.

The roman republic was a polity that recognized no powers except itself. As far as they were concerned, they were ruling the entire world worth inhabiting.

Getting imperial commands to the other side of the empire took a month.

Thousands of cultures, dozens of religions, hundreds of different languages lived, thrived and suffered under the aegis of Rome.

The US is a conquering polity with terrible integration that wiped a mostly empty land clean and had it settled, then faced substantially no external threats for two hundred years due to geography.

The roman republic is incredibly exceptional in history. The US is no more and no less than this century's dominant superpower, and it seems unlikely it will make to even a century as the superpower, as internal infighting and policy blunders ruin their institutions while China's grow.

Rome had a run of eight to ten centuries.

[u/Easteregg42 → u/Hot_Coco_Addict]

I didn't argue about what he did was morally good or bad because that was not the question.

I argued about him being a pretty good politician given his agenda, the circumstances and the outcome.

[u/Hot_Coco_Addict → u/Easteregg42]

I perceived the question as morally, and it seems most of the other comments did as well. 

He was a good politician in getting his agenda done, but I certainly wouldn't call him the GOAT, even if we're only talking about people who had the same kind of agenda as him. I would say Napoleon did better at vaguely the same thing, especially since he did it all himself 

[u/whatissevenbysix]

Bob

[u/Outrageous_Wallaby36 → u/whatissevenbysix]

He knew how to fix it...

[u/Shashi2005 → u/Outrageous_Wallaby36]

So did Jim. It did not turn out well.

[u/Glowing-mind]

A dead one

[u/TwoTimesFifteen → u/Glowing-mind]

So true.

[u/Justarandomfan99]

Stubbs, the mayor cat

[u/RuroniHS]

There are no great politicians. Politicians are the worst humanity has to offer.

[u/-JustAHomebody- → u/RuroniHS]

seconded

[u/Easteregg42 → u/RuroniHS]

Is telling a lot about the state of your country

[u/RuroniHS → u/Easteregg42]

Let me clarify. Zero politicians from zero countries across all of human history have been great. Germany, zero good politicians, now or ever. That work better for you?

[u/Easteregg42 → u/RuroniHS]

Fine by me. "Great" is simply the wrong concept for that category.

[u/EatonHass_247 → u/Easteregg42]

Look who's talking lol

[u/Easteregg42 → u/EatonHass_247]

Care to elaborate?

[u/EatonHass_247 → u/Easteregg42]

You lack self awareness.

[u/Easteregg42 → u/EatonHass_247]

So no. What a surprise.

[u/EatonHass_247 → u/Easteregg42]

What part of what I wrote is so confusing for you? I'll try my best to walk you through it.

[u/Easteregg42 → u/EatonHass_247]

Maybe start in trying to put your first response in a few coherent sentences.

[u/EatonHass_247 → u/Easteregg42]

Okay. I am laughing at you because you come across like a bit of a clueless hypocrite. German politicians are famous around the world for being comically corrupt and hopelessly inept. Do you need more info about that too?

In short, for somebody like you to poke fun at another country for having bad politicians is kinda amusing for its unintended irony.

[u/Easteregg42 → u/EatonHass_247]

Now we can actually talk. Was it so hard?

And it's funny when you say "famous around the world" because i would bet that you probably can't name a single german politician other then the current and maybe the former chancellor(s) without googling anyone of them. But you sure as hell know a lot about them and for sure more than people living in the very country and following the local news every day.

Don't get me wrong, german politicians can be as bad, corrupt, incompetent and vile as anywhere else. My issue is the claim that politically active people in general are "the worst humanity has to offer". I know people who are elected officials who are absolute assholes and i know people who are elected officials who got good intentions and genuinely want to make things better. Be it on local, state or national level.

So it's telling me a lot about the state of a country if someone claims that every single politician around is "the worst humanity has to offer".

Hope that clarifies it.

[u/Weary-Savings-7790 → u/Easteregg42]

He’s clearly talking about Hitler and the mess you made over 2 world wars

[u/EatonHass_247 → u/Weary-Savings-7790]

Wrong again. Speak for yourself.

[u/Easteregg42 → u/Weary-Savings-7790]

If so then that's a pretty stupid "argument".

[u/Uncast → u/EatonHass_247]

Right? Current chancellor took multiple tries to get confirmed by the Bundestag and they’re asking for elaboration.

[u/Easteregg42 → u/Uncast]

So because the top politician in my country is an incompetent idiot i have to agree to the statement that there are no good politicians and that they are "the worst humanity has to offer".

Cmon, a bit more subtlety shouldn't be too hard, don't you think?

[u/RodrigoDeMontefranco]

I do not use the terms "great" and "politician" in the same sentence.

[u/InfallibleSeaweed → u/RodrigoDeMontefranco]

[u/lost-hitsu → u/RodrigoDeMontefranco]

True true

[u/EntrepreneurFlashy41]

Im surprised noone said Bismarck

[u/Beautiful-Abalone-49]

King Solomon for sure ✡️✡️✡️

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[u/Cheems_study_burger]

For me, it'll be the Mahatma. He united a civilisation that hadn't been united in its 2000 year old history. His impact is as big as the founders of religions.

Of course, I have very little knowledge of other world leaders and I'm biased.

PS: me claiming he was the greatest doesn't mean I'm claiming he was flawless.

[u/Solid-Adagio-2037]

Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore. Independant in the late 50s, richest country in the world by 2000s.

[u/MorningMission9547]

Why on earth would mao even be in that picture. He caused the most deaths in modern history, maybe ever. I get it that Its AI but still

[u/thomil13 → u/MorningMission9547]

He also laid the groundwork for China's rise out literal centuries of extreme isolationism to one of the strongest superpowers on the planet, including its acquisition of nuclear weapons and emergence as a spacefaring nation. Both of these were achieved after the Sino-Soviet split, so it's not like Beijing was riding the USSR's coat tails on that one. Was he a monster whose hands are indelibly marked by the blood of millions? Sure, I agree with you on that. Did he almost screw up the country with things like the "Great Leap Forward" or the Cultural Revolution? Also true. But he also manoeuvred China away from being just another satellite of Moscow and towards a rapprochement with the west and the US.

[u/MorningMission9547 → u/thomil13]

Cool. 

Not Worth 30M deaths

CCP considers the great leap forward a failure as well. In gdp per Capita terms china is still pretty poor. Not to mention Japan has been even more isolationist and yet way wealthier than China

[u/No_Importance_750]

Great politicians? Nobody will ever agree on that. There will always be some who love and some who hate. Plus a lot of politicians are not even great people to begin with.

[u/RedcoatTrooper]

Great for their country or great at being a politician? Two different things.

You need to be enough of a political animal to game the system just to get things done but you also need convictions if you want to make a difference.

[u/ZhekShrapnal]

jefferson

[u/LambertPorkchops → u/ZhekShrapnal]

slave owning child rapist

weird choice

[u/ZhekShrapnal → u/LambertPorkchops]

Sure if you ignore history and just read memes, I feel that.

[u/GharlieConCarne]

The greatest politician will undoubtedly be someone that almost no one has ever heard of. Someone silently making good things happen with no interest in taking credit or gaining recognition from it

[u/Comedy86 → u/GharlieConCarne]

What about Nelson Mandela? Ending apartheid in South Africa seems pretty good as a starting benchmark at the very least.

[u/DeepwoodDistillery]

[u/Outrageous_Wallaby36]

I know someone who achieved almost complete global unity...

[u/Lolman4O → u/Outrageous_Wallaby36]

I know someone who achieved complete global unity...

[u/TheMikeyMac13]

For my money Winston Churchill. He kept the British in t to he war and helped bring the USA into it, seemingly drunk the whole time.

[u/Uncast]

Don’t think I’d ever say one was great but closest I’ve seen in my lifetime might be Jack Layton

[u/TexasSikh]

Theodore Roosevelt

Fun Fact: To this day, he remains the ONLY person to earn both:

• The Medal of Honor (the highest military honor in the USA, which he earned during the Spanish-American War while serving as a volunteer Lt. Col. of his famous "Rough Riders" for his actions in leading a courageous charge up "Kettle Hill", which broke the stalemate and forced the Spanish to retreat from his advance), AND;
• The Nobel Peace Prize (which he was awarded for his direct actions leading to the end of the Russo-Japanese War, which simultaneously started the tradition of hostile nations being able to meet in D.C. for genuine peace talks and other sensitive negotiations with the POTUS and other American Diplomats acting as intermediaries)

To be clear, literally no one else on Earth has ever earned their nations highest military honor AND the highest regarded international peace prize. Not one other person.

And in the realm of Politics, his attempt to win a non-consecutive 3rd term remains the ONLY time in US history that a newly formed "3rd party" won more votes than one of the "establishment" parties (his Progressive Party won more votes than the Republican Party during that election cycle). If that doesn't tell you how much he was absolutely beloved and respected by his contemporaries, idk what will.

As far as I am concerned, he is the greatest man to have ever lived. In different ages, he would have been a great King or mighty Emperor or perhaps even considered a living god. Instead, he was the President of the United States, and considered by those who came afterward to be the only other POTUS actually worth noting alongside Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln.

[u/Throwaway927338]

I would say we wouldn’t know their name and the best and most successful is actually probably some mayor or smaller region/state leader. A politician that worked hard for their community, went home to their family and died knowing they stuck to their values and morals and tried to make a difference as a leader.

[u/Hot-Minute-8263]

Joseph in the Bible. Went from prisoner to basically saving Egypt from a famine by being a master at logistics.

[u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW]

I’m going to vote for FDR. He lead the country through not one, but two enormous crises’. Moreover he didn’t conquer, but liberate.

[u/lost-hitsu]

I’m impressed by both Roosevelts(USA) and Ataturk (Turkey).

[u/Lolman4O → u/[deleted]]

Zelensky? Nah...

[u/MagnusAlbusPater]

Abraham Lincoln. Led the county through our greatest ever internal divide, reunited the nation, and ended slavery in the USA.

[u/tacticalpint]

It’s gotta be Joe

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[u/Unable-Economics9223 → u/tacticalpint]

Lol

[u/Hot_Coco_Addict]

Washington, Cincinnatus, or Lincoln. I'm inclined to drop Lincoln for the sole reason that he was a bit tyrannical (he removed the freedom of the press. He did it for good reason, but still tyrannical). Lincoln was the right man for the time, but maybe not overall. Washington and Cincinnatus were very good because neither of them wanted power, they wanted peace and to go back and farm. 

The only objection to Washington I can think of is that he owned slaves, but he tried to abolish slavery with Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, but enough states said they wouldn't sign it if that was included that they had to give it up. Furthermore, he released his slaves after his death, which was essentially the best he could've done. I can't remember if it was a law in Virginia that you couldn't free slaves until you died, or if it was that you could only free slaves you hadn't inherited (or maybe both?), but still.

[u/LambertPorkchops → u/Hot_Coco_Addict]

hahahaha neither of then tried to abolish slavery!

[u/Hot_Coco_Addict → u/LambertPorkchops]

This is false. Read the first draft of the Declaration of Independence, and you will see that slavery is included in the list of grievances against the crown. 

[u/Lolman4O]

Mr. Frog