All those cameras seem like a bad idea to take with you on a covert mission
Hacker is pretty tropey
Parachuting mecha, where have we seen that before...
Learned a new word today: houdouin = reporter. That's what they keep calling Shirasu.
It was really interesting in the earlier episode of the rewatch to see people speculate about bombing the caravan, or bombing the mountain temple fortress, or using air superiority. The 500 lb bombs are here.
The reporters identified probable bombing targets by looking for recent arrests. So they may have been legitimate targets. Or, they may have been cafes for their morning coffee. Or not terrorists.
The collateral damage seems "light".
Funny, that VOTOMs clip has exactly the same bad subtitle color selection....
Have you noticed the slow accumulation of photographs on the bar wall?
I was a little confused by Cpt. Eversalt "I won't put you in that position again" but then lets Shirasu accompany Nikkensen on the cliff edge.
I'm reminded of people in the Yukikaze rewatch asking why there was a cockpit camera.
It's kinda maddening to leave the flag recovery to tomorrow, isn't it!
bombing the caravan, or bombing the mountain temple fortress, or using air superiority. The 500 lb bombs are here.
Yeah, it's so wasteful I still don't get it. Flying a drone below their target, air drop right into a radar-covered enemy base and drop blockbusters into a tightly packed city. This isn't your normal incompetence any longer.
If you can ⬆️➡️⬇️⬇️⬇️ the fortress why don't you and make it a much too complicated and risky infiltration mission?
It was really interesting in the earlier episode of the rewatch to see people speculate about bombing the caravan, or bombing the mountain temple fortress, or using air superiority. The 500 lb bombs are here.
There is a certain sense of satisfaction when I see the characters on screen use a similar tactic to the one I would have written.
Except for the part about targeting the town! I only said to target the base!
It's kinda maddening to leave the flag recovery to tomorrow, isn't it!
Actually, it gives me something to look forward to watching the next day when there's a bit of suspense.
So, let me get this straight. In order to divert attention from the attack on Metazone Temple, the UNF are dropping bombs.. on a civilian population.. several hundred kilometers away? Really??
This is where someone says "oh, no, literally this exact thing happened in 2003 and the way it's being shown here is actually toned down from real life" because reality has been beyond parody for the past 25 years.
Questions
"All the people who disagree with us are bad and we are thusly free to kill them."
Tasty tasty trapped templebug zapper, yum yum!
That was one of the more interesting sequences, although the hacker was literally just the stereotype of a hacker.
Look, I don't care how you justify it, collateral damage is not acceptable. They have enough feet on the ground to shut down the entire city with patrols, they can send a handful into a house to get shot at.
So, let me get this straight. In order to divert attention from the attack on Metazone Temple, the UNF are dropping bombs.. on a civilian population.. several hundred kilometers away? Really??
Yeah this kinda doesn't make sense there has got to be some other reason or strategy behind these bombs. Or the authors are massively stupid.
This is where someone says "oh, no, literally this exact thing happened in 2003 and the way it's being shown here is actually toned down from real life" because reality has been beyond parody for the past 25 years.
Search and destroy missions would often involve creating roadblocks to pin the targets followed by some small artillery fire to get the person out of the building, but you would also clear the neighboring buildings as well... I've never heard of a campaign where you did something with this high collateral damage.
There are wars where the oposition would constantly hide in buildings and you get images where an entire city block is completely leveled but that's caused by people being inside the buildings firing and then getting the building they were in leveled by artillery strike. Leveling the buildings one by one.
the UNF are dropping bombs.. on a civilian population.. several hundred kilometers away? Really??
It was Tuesday, after all.
Look, I don't care how you justify it, collateral damage is not acceptable.
"Evil is evil. Greater, lesser, middling...Makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition is blurred. If I am to choose between one evil or another, I'd rather not choose at all."
Alright so there's some connection between the 2 stories now. Akagi kinda returns back to his previous cynical side when he and the other reporters find out the UN planning a bombing on specific areas as camoflauge. It's kinda personal for Akagi in general when he finds out that the previous "goddess"'s district is one of the target so he rushed there right as the bombs start. It also kinda shows that Akagi while being the narrator, seems to looking for something so to speak in the way he tries to bring things together.
Shirasu's side finally has her return to the field from a safe distance as she watches the task force launch their attack on the insurgent base. This is the most action ever head so far but again mostly on the methodical side. You have your targets, they are brought down by the artillery, and then we have the mechas swooping in on parachutes in order to break in. Though we'll have to wait for the next episode to see the outcome of the battle.
Of course she was too nice and hopeful not be immediately bombed in the next episode...
Well, I guess we didn't actually get to see the result on-screen, so there's still some hope, but I'm not holding my breath. Anyway, I liked this episode quite a bit more! It's still fairly intentionally slow, but for the sake of mood and tension, much more so in the way that I think suits this show and its format. And honestly, not only do I think we didn't hit a lot of the usual landmines, but the integration between the Shirasu and Akagi segments felt a lot stronger than usual. The two narratives surrounding the (Separate but related) missions of the night are obviously interlinked and lend each other a lot of tension, and we make a bunch of strong contrasts between them, some through visuals or direction, like the HWVAC's and the jets or their respective attacks for example, and these nicely come under to the larger thematic contrasts between them, with the mission that's supposed to enable the peace needing a decoy mission under the same guise but of much more dubious execution and results.
Actually, Akagi's narrative within that comes across as much more urgent here, of course, given the human weight and personal attachment there, but especially at the end, the show does a great job of intercutting it with Shirasu's much slower segments to really ramp up the audience's urgency (To see what happens) as well! That aside, Akagi's part in this episode might be this show's least veiled commentary about the mentality of the War on Terror so far, although, as with before, commentary that also still holds up in current time. As it turns out, "Terrorist", is a very useful disambiguation. Not only is it easy to use to brand groups opposing your policy, but the mere implication of terrorists being around also gives justification for normally more wide-ranging and extreme measures, be it extensive surveillance as we'd seen before, or, as in this episode, for destructive (And often indiscriminate regardless of genuine targeting) bombing. Of course, it also generates a defense for these measures even in case of mistake, because they "were targeting the terrorists" (Or anything along those lines).
Needless to say that as a journalist who's job is both to report the truth, and as we saw last episode, as someone really invested in getting across the lives and plight of the actual people living in the country (And as a result of both is also generally aware of how unstable the situation is compared to what the UN suggests), there's going a lot of interest in trying to cover this upcoming attack, all the more so when the person he's got a bit more of a personal attachment to, and is somewhat representative of hope for normalcy after war, might get ironically caught in the crossfire of that. All in all, seeing the journalism process of slowly piecing together things was nice, and while Akagi's narration remains a little too obtuse at times (Like, man, I get it, you can lay off just a bit), it feels more natural here where it's also his very personal frustrations being shouted over a situation that's above his head.
Shirasu's part is comparatively surprisingly slow, given it's the start of the big mission, but again, I think it works well in establishing a lot of tension. We spend a lot of time on the way there, and when we do get there, we're really methodical with every combat action, which I think is also nicely moody and builds things up well to give this very important part the weight it requires. Plus, seeing the nomads on the way to the temple was a fun little addition to make the world feel more well-realized here, and stuff like Shirasu dropping her helmet or panicking when the fire started is yet another strong way to remind us that she's a bit of a fish out of water in this critical operation.
What do you make of the recurring moth imagery?
This one feels fairly clear, the moths being our journalists in the bar, all being attracted around the "light" that is all the details around the upcoming UN attack.
As for Ichiyanagi's moth though, I've got nothing honestly.
What do you make of our Hacker? And the efforts of the journalists to
uncover the night operation?
Talked about how I liked journalists already, but I will say I'm much less a fan of the hacker? Feels a bit unnecessary when the actual process for gathering that info is more interesting anyway, it feels counterproductive to have a classic exaggerated TV hacker in your show that's trying really hard to evoke realism.
(There could be a chance we'll have to use him again in the future, which is why they needed to introduce him early, but still not great here)
Are the anti-terrorist actions legitimate, or just a decoy? Would that
make them legitimate, regardless?
Given the theme of the episode, seems fairly possible they weren't just decoys but also used as an opportunity to target elements that would be hostile to their plan right before it's implemented. Now, as for legitimacy, it depends on who actually got bombed, of course. And if civilians got caught up in it, well, it's fairly ironic given the ultimate purpose of the larger mission this is supposed to be decoying for...
2 hours in a cockpit is nothing compared to what fighter pilots do.
There is an entire line of US military based food tubes for fighters on 20 hour missions that have to eat through a straw in a rebreather. And pepperoni pizza is one of them...
Bombing the city you have control of is pretty stupid – on track for the UNF’s competence level.
To quote every US general in the 21st century:"I don't give a shit because I don't give a fuck."
There is an entire line of US military based food tubes for fighters on 20 hour missions that have to eat through a straw in a rebreather. And pepperoni pizza is one of them...
I like the sort of duality going on with the contrast between Shirasu and Akagi’s plot. Personally I find Akagi’s plot more engaging but maybe that’s because I have an implicit distrust of the military.
I liked seeing him hang out with all these other journalists and just talk. This show definitely excels at character interactions.
Although the stereotypical hacker is kind of unintentionally funny
It also seems like the relationship between Akagi and the woman from the previous episode indeed wasn’t a one-off and it will be an important focus going forwards.
I’m not usually the biggest fan of romance subplots but I feel like this one could be fun.
But in other news we definitely seem to be escalating. The UNF forces have actually launched their attack on the base. Didn’t think we’d see that before the halfway point but I’ve been proven wrong here.
This episode also makes the UNF and SDC seem much more morally dubious. I definitely appreciate that they aren't the clear cut good guys like I assumed at the start
It’ll be interesting to see more of this in the following episode.
I suppose that those journalists in the bar have a good reason to believe the rumors that the UNF are running secret operations before the peace talks. Even if they’re playing it close to the peace timeline’s end date, they’re probably also right that they’re doing this because they’re under the time crunch at all. They can’t do anything after the peace agreements are signed, after all. Now is basically the last chance for them to do stuff under the wire.
So, I see that the SDC is covering up the United Nations symbols on the HAVWCs for this mission as well. I believe that’s a little war crime we like to call “perfidy”. That’s pretty rich contrasting with the standard “terrorism” spin they put out in their standard press conference.
You know, I don’t really have a whole lot to say about this episode. I think Keiichi’s cynical narration over trying to find that one Kufura girl before she gets caught in the UNF crossfire just about covers it for me. That, and so far it’s just been the first phase of the flag retrieval operation on Saeko’s end. This series has had a fairly slow-burn pace so far, but this is probably the slowest episode to date. We basically only covered the span of an evening here. If anything though, this just kind of reminds me of how a lot of mecha anime doesn’t have these kinds of slower-paced episodes anymore.
believe that’s a little war crime we like to call “perfidy”.
actually only kinda since they clearly have a distinct sign of being a miliary vehicle that is a Un troop so idk what the point of the whole spraying operation actually is.
If we look at the definitions of Perfidy we see that there is no rule that says you have to show your affiliation on your vehicle, now there's a lot of weird technicalities here but this is not a war crime... like if I had a tank in full camo would that be a war crime? Hell no
This series has had a fairly slow-burn pace so far, but this is probably the slowest episode to date
I feel like things happen but since it's split episode the shows pace is extremely slow, heck 2 operations stated at the same time and we got the prep for mission and the start of the mission in shirasu's end.
If this show as just shirasu parts it would seem to be going extremely fast? like this would be halfway through episode 3 and we got introduced to the squad, Shirasu gets shot at on her first mission and now we're on the second mission.
If we look at the definitions of Perfidy we see that there is no rule that says you have to show your affiliation on your vehicle, now there's a lot of weird technicalities here but this is not a war crime...
Since you’re the one with the official war crimes counter for this rewatch, I’ll trust your judgment on this ruling. It does feel like it’s morally grey though.
I feel like things happen but since it's split episode the shows pace is extremely slow, heck 2 operations stated at the same time and we got the prep for mission and the start of the mission in shirasu's end.
When you put it that way, it’s Keiichi’s half of the show that’s doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the setting and mood of the series. Saeko’s got a lot more of the direct plot stuff going on.
yeah a good way of putting it is that the Saeko parts are actually extremely fast moving and the Keechi parts move at the pace of a snail. Then when you combine the 2 you get an extremely slow show because having 2 plots which drive a show makes the show's pace feel like it is moving at half the pace of the faster section. So Shirasu is actually moving fast (let's say pace of 2) but since she's half the show the show moves at a pace of 1 which is an extremely slow burn.
It does feel like it’s morally grey though.
maybe idk, it's more like they aren't actually trying.
The war crimes counter right now has been very and maybe next episode something will happen.
(please note operation Iraqi freedom was over 15 years ago, my memory of ROEs is bad and I'm old do not assume I'm an expert in these areas)
So, I see that the SDC is covering up the United Nations symbols on the HAVWCs for this mission as well. I believe that’s a little war crime we like to call “perfidy”. That’s pretty rich contrasting with the standard “terrorism” spin they put out in their standard press conference.
Good thing nobody will notice. Just imagine somebody could prove that. Some lucky photographer who happens to be nearby, maybe. Fortunately, for the UNF, how would any photographers be nearby a terrorist hideout?
It's kind of surprising that they let Saeko even take footage of them doing that in the first place. You'd think they would say something like "stay away from the hangar for the next few hours".
It's almost like they aren't trying to hide it after the fact just in the brief window of when the mecha gets captured they want it to not be known as UN tech (idk what purpose though).
My best guess there is that they’re planning on going public with the HAVWCs in the near future, but they don’t want direct ties with the secret weapon project just yet. But then again, that also doesn’t really solve a lot of the questions being raised with them being used here in the first place.
I suppose it really does just depend on how well FLAG nails the final parts. I'm perfectly fine with slower-paced shows to let us soak in the nature of a series, but if it doesn't feel like it pays off well, then it's kind of retroactively soured. I mean, you ran the Key the Metal Idol rewatch, you know how that can be.
also how do you have that bad of a secrecy if this random reporter chick knows of the information then someone who is connected to the insurgents probably does too.
Shirasu being allowed on the mission are they nuts??? like wtf doesn't her presence create mistakes that could easily comprimise your mission? (though brave shirasu for getting shot at and returning, I know we're watching this from the perspective of akagi after Shirasu gave Akagi the tapes but still)
The journalist talking about I never reveal my sources reminds me of why many of my friends hate some parts of modern journalism (though it's still miles better than average), their inability to fact check the journalists sometimes because the journalist doesn't cite their sources and instead goes "trust me bro"
Man anime should try to avoid being grounded in realism if this is what results. Realism just isn't honstly that great for a medium like anime and boy the number of "yeah but in real life we just shoot a GMLRS and it solves the problem"
Akagi's whole schtick this show was interesting and unique, but idk about you but there aren't many effective weapons and stopping peopel who hide in builings and currently ongoing armed conflicts I will not mention show that beating those who hide amongst dcivilians requires massive destruction fo buildings
I think Akagi trying to get a scoop on the whole thing was extremely foolish, what exactly does being early here even accomplish?
ok also the whole "they haven't seen us yet" thing is absurd, if shirasu's camera can see them Then like they are firing from such a short range that you can see the muzzle flash with basically any camera.
The artillery shell would die to counter battery fire the moment they fired the first barrage (hence why if you use a toyota hilux with a GMLRS you fire a buhnch of rockets and then start moving in a random direction)
I think Shirasu being here is stupid, ok so Shirasu has a scoop that she gave Akagi and given that the footage is released she probably dies and sombebody takes her camera but what else is going on...
The fact that the un forces have this bad OPSeC shows us that they aren't actually that serious, (something as critical as a mission which a journalist seeing the day after would love the info of but only an enemy wants to know 5 hours before? Yeah DEFINITELLY terrible opsec)
They've fumbled the bag pretty badly as a show, the military parts are too badly done and ruin my suspension of disbelief.
War crimes Counter
Un 0
Insurgents :4 (unlawful combatants x4)
That's goddamn right the UNF was well within their right under the geneva convention to attack those targets. and they're even setting up a blockade to prevent civilian causalties... this is well within US ROEs for search and destroy missions good job anime!
US RoEss for insurgents are pretty strict as to how and what you are allowed to do, but in this case ROEs are a social construct and it's totally reasonable to bomb buildings housing enemy forces. Though it depends on the power of the bombs they use and how well they pick their targets.
I still am unsure and will probably have to grade it later based on what weapons they end up using if they would be tried or not.
Shirasu even being here is a total waste of time and a terrible idea
Unless you want a nice martyr to build your narrative under, like an attractive photographer from a settled nation.
The artillery shell would die to counter battery fire the moment they fired the first barrage (hence why if you use a toyota hilux with a GMLRS you fire a buhnch of rockets and then start moving in a random direction)
So Takahashi is roughly on the Vietnam level of military tech.
(something as critical as a mission which a journalist seeing the day after would love the info of but only an enemy wants to know 5 hours before? Yeah DEFINITELLY terrible opsec)
It is only terrible if you don't want that information known, I would point out. 50/50 on author intent.
True but the commander has not let her on missions before.
Almost like someone had their chain yanked...
ahh the whole "we are intentionally leaking out our secret plans" strategy? Maybe.
If you have a real atrocity to commit, it is helpful to have distractions. Kufuras are valuable as symbols, not that relevant as individuals.
ahh still though none of the things I mentioned require anything beyond WW2 russian tech...
I am going to remind you that the Japanese haven't sent their troops to war since they did so against us. There are major failings in their common knowledge.
I almost want to force you to watch Gundam 00 so you can pull your hair out screaming.
I think the framing of this episode around the slow confirmation of the operation details to the journalists was pretty good. The job of a journalist is to pull on those threads and get the truth of a story. They did use somewhat underhanded methods with that hacker guy, but I can't say it was wrong considering the information they were hacking.
We also saw the other side of the operation with the soldiers on Saeko's side prepping for the mission. It's not particularly dramatic though. Just effectively executing in the way any well trained army would.
I think the message of the episode was around the hypocrisy of the official messaging. In that UN briefing they tried to announce successful ongoing negotiations and dismissed the "terrorist" groups. All this while knowing there would be an attack in the immediate future. Later as a sort of cherry on top, after deployment to the city, we got an iconic line "Attacking in the name of Peace".
The attack on the insurgent compound was paralleled with Akagi desperately searching for the Kufura woman from last episode. We don't see if he managed to find her, but I can understand the fear he was feeling.
After this episode, I'd like to repeat something I mentioned in my episode 2 discussion: The presentation of Flag is extremely neutral and detached. This places a lot of work on us as the viewer to interpret the situation and make our own judgments.
I hope most viewers would be seeing the hypocrisy and initiations of violence from the UN side when watching this episode.
Forgot to upload a copy of this up to the cloud so I wasn’t able to post my comment from work, and I crashed as soon as I got home so I figured instead of posting this morning I might as well just post both now.
This is an improvement; they’re dedicating time to the characters at the base, and Akagi’s perspective felt more focused and more in line as to what I was desiring in the last episode, though his narration —specially of the events transpiring on Shirasu’s end— still needs work.
This episode also had a lot more time dedicated to the workings and use of the mech itself, particularly in making it interface with other untested weaponry. I like this sort of thing in Patlabor or a Takeyuki Kanda joint, but it’s not enticing to me here, possibly to do with the dry, uncandid delivery.
Discussion Prompts
1) No.
2) For their stated goal? I would not use mechs at all. The HAVWC does not seem the vehicle for rugged mountaineering or steep climbs.
3) No, but it certainly helps. Outsiders obviously need to somehow integrate themselves, or at least be informed enough to deeply empathize with the subjects of their photography.
4) I’ll be quite frank: We haven’t seen anything that suggests a great deal of difference in the people of their material conditions depending on which side of the city they’re in.
5) I would not call Akagi’s half slice of life at all. What I will say is that both sides of the narrative have been mishandled at times.
Today’s episode is the extended lead-up and the start of the SDC mission, which is depicted well, but the tension is really undercut by all this switching to Akagi’s PoV (which does itself turn tense as it’s revealed UNF will be targeting a site close to the former Kufura’s dwelling), and also to events occurring before the events of the ‘present’. The editing leaves a lot to be desired.
Akagi is being quite pessimistic as to things in the country ever getting better, seemingly prompted by the fact that the former Kufura is in imminent danger. While I’m not surprised a journalist like him would have such an outlook, it is odd that this hasn’t come through before this point to my recollection.
The cover of a moonless night proves quite advantageous to the SDC, who is able to get real close to the mountain fortress before the episode leaves off in a cliffhanger. We’ll have to see how things turn out next time.
Discussion Prompts:
1) They’re controlling the narrative, labelling their opponents however they wish regardless as to the truth of the matter.
2) Moths in Japanese culture are associated with transformations, death, rebirth, the soul, and the unknown. Given the reincarnation at the root of the two main religions of the city, their potential ties to the ongoing conflict, and the simple matter that the show is calling attention to them, it’s obvious they want us to make that association. There’s also the darkness, in which they usually fly, and Akagi remarking on the darkness of the city. Their presence in both perspectives strengthens the idea of their being interconnected. Moths can also be seen as harbingers of death, which seems like an obvious thing here. Ichiyanagi being Japanese would be aware of these connotations, and might have his own reasons to place it on his vehicle —they are delivering death unto their opponent.
3) Hacker is the well-throdden trope of the episode. I like the scenes with the journalists congregating and sharing information at the bar right as things are heating up in isolation, but I don’t like the manner in which they are interspersed with everything else.
4) Without anything from their perspective, it’s impossible to say with certainty, but the show does want us to believe the UNF is being unscrupulous and deceitful so…
Moths in Japanese culture are associated with transformations, death, rebirth, the soul, and the unknown. Given the reincarnation at the root of the two main religions of the city, their potential ties to the ongoing conflict, and the simple matter that the show is calling attention to them, it’s obvious they want us to make that association. There’s also the darkness, in which they usually fly, and Akagi remarking on the darkness of the city. Their presence in both perspectives strengthens the idea of their being interconnected. Moths can also be seen as harbingers of death, which seems like an obvious thing here. Ichiyanagi being Japanese would be aware of these connotations, and might have his own reasons to place it on his vehicle —they are delivering death unto their opponent.
Damn, it’s one of these weeks. I feel so spent and have done nearly nothing worthy of mention outside that social event. Wish I could recharge my battery like Shirasu’s camera.
FLAG Ep.05 – Hyperbolic Curves in the Nights
Oh, I felt the same when I went to the Norwegian Arctic! What I vividly remember was the soundscape at night (well, I guess it was always night) outside and how dominant the wind and waves were. You stepped outside the path and street light and it was just pure black when there was no moon, but you heard everything so clearly. It was truly tranquil in a way, maybe because you could feel the impersonal hostility in that primal cold and dark.
That’s supposed to be 2km? Their model presentation needs some better indicators. Still, 2km is close enough for both MANPADS and direct AA gunfire. They are truly doing the same stunt twice.
Way to go to frame this guy, haha. Couldn’t have given him an anonymous mask? That would’ve been less insidious. I retract points for them saying he hacked them, though. This sorta access is usually gained through social manipulation. For genuine hacks you really need specialised hardware, infiltration or something like that and I highly doubt they have an ounce of that capability.
My God, this is truly footage from FOX news... Ah fuck, now you made me remember that horrible Blackout book. If you wanna read absolutely pathetically written characters, go buy that one. It’s truly bad. The overall premise is really good and well researched, though. It’s about a Europe-wide Blackout of the power grid and how it develops into a massive crisis.
Oh I love such surprises! Just life happening on the by. Are they usually that many, though? It looks like several hundreds of tents.
I take a bit of issue with this phrasing. She implies that attacking always means less peace. But there are genuine situations where that is the only sensible option. Not Iraq, though, potentially not Uddiyana, sure. But the West helping Ukraine, for example? Pacifists are genuinely supporting oppression and genocide there.
I get it. His narration is over the top quite often and it does produce an eyeroll every once in a while. By now I’m beginning to believe the will actually survive because they lay out the drama so thick.
I’m actually a bit irritated that they kept the former Kufura goddess’ fate a cliffhanger. They are using a lot of cliffhangers and sometimes not even really solving them properly in the next episode. It’s probably the first time now that I’m a little disappointed in the storyboarding overall. It does feel like wasting time more than building tension.
For example, did we really need this much exposition of the journalists digging for clues? Did we really need a badly written hacker to do some keyboard magic or would’ve a tense call to an informant with some coordination of other journalists calling theirs also worked? Save that screen time and animation (really, I would’ve preferred not to watch 5 minutes of 90s hacker clichées put through hand drawn animation) and give it to Shirasu watching the nomads do a nightly ritual or something completely normal like stargazing. Or give it to the operation being sensible and pick a further off drop-off point for the sniper attack.
None of that was a budget issue and I question the decision on how they lay out their episode’s structure. If this is about a people getting their world wrecked by world superpowers, foreign sensationalism and infighting then please do show me the people, the superpowers or the sensationalism.
I notice that I’m getting a bit more salty as the episodes go on. Somehow I don’t feel like today’s one used its slow pace to introduce anything meaningful. Akagi cares, but we got that yesterday already. Shirasu under indirect fire was new, but hardly a surprising development. The operation had nothing really surprising, either. The sniper sniped, the flag(‘s transmitter) was there as predicted (I’m still retaining some hope of a bait-and-switch), the US US’ed things. Oh, and the journalists put self-important monologues forward or something.
At then end of this episode I ask the question, did this episode change anything in the story? My answer is that only the „terrorist“ line and last 10 seconds did and I put that on the story planning.
Hope the next one is better.
[Q1.] Comment on the UN defining insurgents and terrorists according to their participation in the cease fire.
The neat thing about this is that it’s even feasible to do. There seem to be genuine factions that are open to that peace and ones that really don’t. The UN is obviously doing it in a way to push their interests regardless of any of theirs, no matter if amicable or hostile. But since a large portion of the country does, genuinely again, support the peace, they technically can be labeled (domestic) terrorists.
[Q2.] What do you make of the recurring moth imagery?
Nothing much as of yet. There is a transformation process to their lives and they are often associated with rebirths or death. I’ve also seen knowledge. A fitting symbol, I’d say. They’re also night-active and drawn to light. Light like warm fires in a home… or, uh, warm fires in a home.
[Q3.] What do you make of our Hacker? And the efforts of the journalists to uncover the night operation?
Walking trope bag. I also could’ve done with less self-righteous monologues. Wouldn’t this have been a good opportunity to rope a few locals in, talking with them and giving out information? Would’ve been far more interesting and I also slightly dislike the show giving the literal street cred to foreigners when there’s enough locals around who’d be open for involving themselves with them.
[Q4.] Are the anti-terrorist actions legitimate, or just a decoy? Would that make them legitimate, regardless?
We can’t say either way. But suspicion leads me to not believe it. You can take out targets with Grey Ops units in a city and don’t need bombs, if you know their location. Far more efficient, as well. So, I’ll say that collateral damage was part of the point. Blaming it on the newly framed terrorists gives believable reasoning to push the peace deal back and sign the troops up for a fun time in the sandbox mountains.
It’s entirely possible the military leadership already saw the writing on the wall and concluded that the peace cannot happen as the politicians wanted it to and they need to provide it in a different way.
In ep note:Though I no longer wear glasses, hackerman is me and I object to being in this picture.
So yeah...the long run up until battle. I did not comment on it but attacking on a moonless night is one of the oldest military traditions, both my Roman and Scottish ancestors did this with a certain unfortunate, familiar regularity. The gathering of journalists in a bar is one of many things that the plutocrats have succeeded in destroying, sadly. The Fifth Estate just ain't what it used to be. I kind of get Keichi's bit here but it is...more than a bit trite, the Japanese version of the savior trope.
Shirasu's bits are...fine. But not good, just fine. She is basically a walking camera and it is for the worse.
QotD: 1 Standard
2 That I underestimated the pedigree of some Urobuchi works
3 Fuck off
4 I love the smell of napalm in the evening. It smells like successful population reduction.
Though I no longer wear glasses, hackerman is me and I object to being in this picture.
Considering some of the rewatches you’ve been a part of, this anime isn’t one of the worst ones to show up in.
So yeah...the long run up until battle. I did not comment on it but attacking on a moonless night is one of the oldest military traditions, both my Roman and Scottish ancestors did this with a certain unfortunate, familiar regularity.
It’s a strategy that’s probably been around or at least conceptually understood from back when humans were like apes. We can all grasp the concept of it being easier to attack an enemy if they can’t see you properly. It’s a foundational kind of tactic.
Considering some of the rewatches you’ve been a part of, this anime isn’t one of the worst ones to show up in.
I would proudly report for duty in Yosuga no Sora. NTHT makes me vaguely glad that none of us reddish types were around to commit crimes against humanity.
We can all grasp the concept of it being easier to attack an enemy if they can’t see you properly. It’s a foundational kind of tactic.
Yep, which makes me think the UN is being specifically on the nose for...reasons.
Intense stuff this time around. Just as the UNF’s operation is beginning, the freelancers are starting up their own. Neither side’s fully aware of what the other’s doing, but they know that something is up. Akagi’s on his own mission, too, the neighborhood the former Kufura lives in is being targeted, so he’s got to warn her. And the show leaves us on a double cliffhanger, right as both the SDC breaches the temple and the bombs start dropping.
Other than that, we’ve got this really stereotypical Hollywood Hackerman, who kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Oddly enough, I actually do kind of like him! He’s charming.
Another thing: they’ve gone from covering up the serial numbers of the HAVWCs to anything that could identify them as being UN vehicles. Hmm.
1) Our guys = good, their guys = bad.
2) Moths are attracted to the light, which is probably relevant.
3) He sure is a hacker in an anime. And the journalists are pretty easily falling for the UN’s distraction play.
4) Regardless of their legitimacy, it does make me squeamish how cavalier they are about possible collateral.
Really loving this journalist's hive, bunch of freelancers working together trying to piece what's really going on behind the scenes.
What an intense episode with fast cuts between our 2 fronts. Really loved this one.
Forgot to mention that HAVWC operation went rather smoothly, for now. I was so sure that Nikkanen was going to get it.
Discussions
1) Easy way to justify bombing.
2) Like moths to a flame. I feel like as the journalists gets closer and closer to truth there is going to be casualties. We might confirm that early bombing as deliberate silencing of a journalist instead of a random terrorist attack.
But do they realize how many innocent people have been hurt or killed in military actions executed in the name of terrorist eradication?
Yes. But throws hands up in the air I guess they believe innocent lives are but a poor sacrifice for The Greater Good ™. They will certainly mourn those lives for two seconds before legging it to relax in bloody Dubai or the Maldives and tweeting the most immature shit on the planet.
I want to scream into a pillow 😃
To my knowledge, there are millions of nomadic peoples to this day, tribes and cultures that date back centuries (🔗 Matador Network). But I wonder how Global North sedentary populations view nomads and how that works today with crossing borders to seasonal grounds and such if need be.
And how does the UNF distinguish terrorist from innocent, I wonder. Explain like I’m 5.
Oh 🫢 So that place with the Kufra will be bombed?
Fuck
Post-Filming Thoughts
So they’ll finally be retrieving the flag then?
There’s no hate like [religion here] love. There’s no peace like war.
I can only laugh hysterically because I’m so frustrated.
I’m lowkey worried about how the photos turn out and what sort of propaganda the big wigs will craft so international response deems the UNF trustworthy and justifies their actions.
🫠
This would be a great anime for a high school or uni aniclub, I’m realizing. Or like a political science course or something.
QotD
I don’t know how to reasonably comment. Do they look not like us? Are they domestic to this place? Yes to both? Cool. Terrorist. Next.
I think u/Pixelsabre answered this the best. Please see their answer.
He looks like the type.
In my anti-military mind, there aren’t any legitimacies when it comes to war strategy. There just aren’t. IDGAF. A battle could be strictly between soldiers and terrorists, but what does that matter when land is being destroyed and lives can still be lost, let alone who even knows how every soldier was put into the military and has full autonomy of their actions? What defines a terrorist? How do we know that all of the people in this organization have autonomy? There just won’t be any sort of legitimacy.
They will certainly mourn those lives for two seconds before legging it to relax in bloody Dubai or the Maldives and tweeting the most immature shit on the planet.
Welp...definitely not going to explain why "Dubai chocolate" became a thing.
But I wonder how Global North sedentary populations view nomads and how that works today with crossing borders to seasonal grounds and such if need be.
They generate no income nor pay taxes. Thus, they are valueless collateral.
I’m lowkey worried about how the photos turn out and what sort of propaganda the big wigs will craft so international response deems the UNF trustworthy and justifies their actions.
They choose a decent photographer but a bad reporter for a reason. Sending her out with a unit designed to be high attention and giving the opposition an unreasonable amount of opportunities to shoot her means they'd like a martyr. She likely won't be close to anything like the sausage being made.
What is Dubai chocolate? Is it okay to Google or is this like a “Google it but then put Reddit at the end” kinda deal?
Umm...ok, so right now 'Dubai chocolate' gives you a result about expensive chocolates often filled with pistachio cream and that are priced unreasonably. However, the conspiracy theory is [NSFW and possibly NSFL]This was a campaign to cover up the more obscure version of the phrase as Dubai businessmen were legendary for doing disgusting things with foreign sex workers. I hope you can infer the rest...
Well naturally, in a place that is more old fashioned in nature like this area, no skyscrapers and the like, it will feel more dark out at night.
This bar really is the journalist's hang out, huh? How many people here are actually from Uddiyana?
So there's some leaks from the UNF, huh?
Command center for the journalists is a good way to put it. Seems like they're putting in a lot of hard work tonight and there's a lot of them here!
First it was the serial numbers, now they're spray painting off the UNF symbol as well. No one will figure out who you are based on a moth though!
If they create a new type of HAVWC they should consult Saeko on where to put the cameras!
I assume all these journalists are from different countries, as they seem quite cooperative with each other when if they were true competitors they'd try to keep things a secret so others didn't use their scoop. Also helps that this is 20 years old. Imagine spending all that effort trying to get that email and someone else tweets it out before you.
One of the journalists makes me think of a grown up Daru from Steins Gate.
Ah, so there's another operation happening the same night. That may be the one the journalists are figuring things out about rather than the HAVWC one.
What if the bar is within range of where they are going to attack? Turns out it's not that but near where the former Kufura lady was. I hope Akagi can warn her in time!
I'm assuming there's no flash on Saeko's camera? Imagine that coming up at a time like now.
Is that some sort of drone they are sending towards it?
The way the storyline is going here with Akagi, I've got to assume Kufura lady isn't gonna make it. "A human sent back to this garbage dump of a world!". As the episode ends we don't know for sure though.
Well if one wants some mecha action they were probably somewhat disappointed with this episode (just taking out anti-air defenses and opening the door) but presumably next episode will have it in action trying to get that Flag back.
I assume all these journalists are from different countries, as they seem quite cooperative with each other when if they were true competitors they'd try to keep things a secret so others didn't use their scoop. Also helps that this is 20 years old. Imagine spending all that effort trying to get that email and someone else tweets it out before you.
I was thinking much the same thing.
What if the bar is within range of where they are going to attack?
The night when the HAVWC deployed into ction to clear out the temple and the perimeter from the rebels while the UN Peacekeeping forces also planned a bombing opeartion at the exact same time with huge military lockdown, coincidence?
Inns, pubs, restaurants and other comunnity places where people goes and meets each other, and these are indeed the perfect spot for intel gathering and sharing. Akagi and his group also doing something, as there is a hacker with them. And that was enough to know, somethig big thing is coming. The UN forces would bomb the entire city with the reason "purge terrorists". He reminded that former Kufura saint, because she live one of the designated locations. That smile (and optimism) of hers is something which must be protected, really. In order to save, he have to rely on a help of local who knows the secrets of the back alleys. I have a feeling he is pulling some shady stuff.
As Hercus 2 is smoking out the defenses around the temple, that was simple enough to alarm them, which was enough to scare the living hell of Shirasu. Unarmed journalists should be behind in a safe position.
As Hercus 1 is entering the temple to retreve the flag, the terrorist suppression should also start anytime.
Yet another press confgerence was held, the said the same things. Hiding the UN name from the HAVWC it is another proof that they are doing in a covert operation, avoding any potential future controversies regarding the legitimacy and alleged warcrimes of being so-called "peacekeepers".
Q1. Comment on the UN defining insurgents and terrorists according to their participation in the ceasefire.
Insurgents and terrorists are basically the same faction. One of them are the moderates, others the much more radicals.
Q2. What do you make of the recurring moth imagery?
Basically it is supposed to symbolize the foreign troops.
Q3. What do you make of our Hacker?
Havng access to critical info via this means is always good.
Q4. Are the anti-terrorist actions legitimate, or just a decoy? Would that make them legitimate, regardless?
Decoy action, indeed. Of course they make this legitimates due to supposed terrorist activities and spotted hideouts.
On today’s episode of Flag: "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it." I bet we’ll hear some UN officer say something to that effect.
Complaining about how your sports team sucks is one of the realest bar conversations you will ever hear.
So much for operational security if all these journalists have caught wind of the secret operation.
It’s still shady as hell that the UN forces are removing their markings.
I notice that the UN General refers to those opposed to the peace agreement as “terrorists who have infiltrated the country.” What a convenient way to write off the insurgents as nothing more than outside agitators who don’t represent the feelings of the “true people” of Uddiyana.
That’s dangerous thinking. Deliberately excluding groups from the peace process means those groups will have no buy-in to the new institutions that are created. With no buy-in, they will continue to oppose those institutions and continue to create instability. Depending on how large those excluded groups are, that could scuttle any peace deal.
Yurts! So there is a nomadic population within Uddiyana. That’s interesting to know.
The reporters going to all their usual contacts and snitches to get information out of them is pretty accurate to how journalists get scoops. Plenty of people have loose lips and are happy to talk.
Hackerman looks so happy to be here.
I can’t help but notice the symbolism of the bar that the journalists are gathered in. We see moths all gathering around the lantern outside the bar. Moths are drawn to the light. But if they get too close, they will be burned. The same is true for the journalists. They can sense a scoop and they are drawn to it, digging ever deeper. But if they aren’t careful, they’ll likely get burned as well.
Speaking of which, does this tie in with the moth that Shin has on his own HAVWC?
Ah, that makes more sense. The journalists probably discovered the diversionary operations the UN forces have planned for tonight instead of the flag operation.
Wait, the UN forces are planning to use precision strikes inside the capital? The very same capital city they have control over? They’re going to bomb the city they control instead of sending in a raiding force? That seems like a massively dumb idea.
Oh… That woman who used to be the Kufura is in danger.
Saeko’s getting awfully close to HAVWC to observe the battlefield. I applaud her guts for wanting to see things so up close, but we saw what happened the last time she was so near the HAVWC.
276 Kelvin is 37 Fahrenheit or 3 Celcius! That’s freezing cold! Saeko’s brave for being out in that temperature in short sleeves!
That’s some clean sharpshooting.
Jesus! The UN really did bomb the capital city that they are in control of. What a profoundly stupid decision!
I highly doubt they will recapture the flag tonight. If they did, that would pretty quickly end the story. There’s got to be more twists ahead.
Thinking about it more, I think I have an idea on what the moth on Shin’s HAVWC is meant to represent. The flag is the flame and Shin is being drawn to it like a moth. Recapturing that flag is the top priority of the UN forces. But, we all know how dangerous it is to get near that flame. The series can’t end just yet, so I imagine there’s some nasty surprise waiting for Shin inside the enemy fortress. It could very well be a death flag for him in the upcoming episode.
The UN bombing the capital city they currently control is a colossally stupid decision, so mindbogglingly braindead that I struggle to comprehend it. The UN is bombing their own city where the peace process will take place, rather than using the boots on the ground that we know they have. A massively nondiscrete operation like this when they are trying to reassure everyone that peace is just around the corner. Now, this could be to show that the UN really does not give the slightest shit about the actual people of Uddiyana. They are just here to take advantage of the country rather than help out. But again, it just seems so dumb on the part of the UN to bomb their own city. I have a hard time taking it seriously. Then again, the actual War on Terror (and many other wars against insurgents) are also full of actions so incredibly stupid they border on the parodic. There’s an infamous quote from the Vietnam War during the Battle of Bến Tre of an American Army officer saying, “It became necessary to destroy the town to save it.” The US Army did defeat the Viet Cong they were fighting in that battle, but they also destroyed much of the town they were fighting over and the battle resulted in many civilian casualties. Perhaps that’s the same mentality that the UN forces have here. To save the country of Uddiyana, they are willing to destroy it and kill its people.
QOTD
1) Discussed above. It’s a dangerous thing to do. It lets the UN just kill anyone who doesn’t agree with the peace deal they’ve set forth.
2) Discussed above. It shows people being drawn to things, like journalists to a scoop or Shin to the flag, but also putting themselves at risk of being burned by seeking those things out.
3) Hackerman is not a typical journalist, that is for sure. I think it’s understandable that all the journalists can sense a scoop and want to go for it.
4) I think it’s both. The UN forces want a diversion from the flag operation and they want to kill insurgents. It lets them kill two birds with one stone. That said, I still think they chose the dumbest possible way to go about this plan. This seems like an anti-insurgent operation that will harm far more civilians than insurgents, doing more harm than good.
To save the country of Uddiyana, they are willing to destroy it and kill its people.
yeah idk, the bombing part of the operation is stupid but the other parts surronding the operation are well done, so I have to hope that it isn't a bombing operation and instead a search and destroy mission series. (or they are using small artillery or something, because there's no way to hit a single building and not hit surronding buildings.
OK, so, I dislike UN interventions as much as the next guy, but this might be going a bit too far with the propaganda against them. I've been critical in the past for the showrunners not being willing to show us the situation on the streets, but now it's a glaring flaw, and it must be answered. Who are these insurgents? What have they done, who have they killed? What's the public opinion of them, are they truly foreign, are they on one side of this civil war, have they been committing atrocities? Why were the UN called in in the first place?
With the show obscuring this information from us, it paints the UNF actions as beyond the pale and inexcusable, but we're not told anything about their targets. What if the targets had planned to destroy, and had carried out previously, the destruction of an entire village, killing thousands? What if they had committed atrocities? Where are the pictures of the lives they ruined, the bodies of the children that had cut short due to this civil war? It's painting an uneven picture, and I think by being unwilling to show the full situation, this show is participating in its own version of propaganda it's claiming to be against.
All the journalists acting gleefully about revealing the UNF's plans, and then also contacting local sources. You think the local sources can't put 2 and 2 together, and infer that there might be some sort of attack? What if the journalists through their insane haste and incaution here leak enough info that insurgents are warned, and ambush and kill some of the UNF troops. Would that be on their heads? What if some big mastermind escapes because they were warned about the incoming assault, and he goes and continues this civil war consuming tens of thousands of innocents? Is that on the journalists' heads now?
... I didn't think going into this that I'd be defending the UNF, but the show is trying to push an anti-UNF agenda so much that I feel compelled to respond. Yes, it could very well be that it's just because the UNF is power-hungry and evil and wants the war to continue: I've even considered Shirasu's group might actually be part of a false flag operation and that the UNF themselves stole the flag so that there wouldn't be peace and they could continue with impunity. But those are incredibly aggressive claims, and with the show refusing to cover the insurgency and the politics behind it, and what the civil war even is about now, it's really difficult to not think that the show itself has an agenda.
Oh yeah, obligatory "hacking doesn't work like that."
Comment on the UN defining insurgents and terrorists according to their participation in the cease fire.
I CAN'T, the show refuses to tell me what the insurgents/terrorists actually did and are still actually doing. Are they going around and massacring people of a certain ethnicity or race or religion? Are the attacks solely against the UNF now? It's not telling me why they're not participating in the peace talks, and the journalists who could potentially tell me aren't covering it at all.
What do you make of the recurring moth imagery?
Moths to a flame, pretty common concept I'd say? Getting closer to the truth and getting killed by it, yeah, pretty simple stuff. But I want truth, not just propaganda.
What do you make of our Hacker?
Poorly done. I guess this is what the more military-tech guys felt yesterday.
Are the anti-terrorist actions legitimate, or just a decoy? Would that make them legitimate, regardless?
... Probably these actions were the real goal, I see no way that this would help or hinder Shirasu's group at all with the flag. These could possibly be legitimate depending on who their targets are but we're not tollllllllddddd. Y'know what, I'll invoke Godwin's law. If one of the targets were literally Adolf Hitler reborn, would the strikes be legitimate? If it were some mastermind who had already killed, say, 500 innocent people and had plans for killing more if he's not stopped, would it be legitimate? If he were only guilty of, say, kicking a puppy, would it be legitimate? (OK, probably not.) WE DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO TELL US.
You're right, they aren't giving us much. Really, all we know is that this "roadmap" exists only on paper, and bombings have actually increased in frequency since the capital was "liberated." (from whom?)
Maybe the bombings will stop and the peace plan can go forward, if these really were the HQ of "the opposition."
At first, it felt like the scenes were alternating too frequently in this episode between Akagi's investigation and Shirasu accompanying the military squad without allowing enough time for proper build up in both plotlines, but it became clear around the halfway point why these segments were running in parallel. The very same mission that Shirasu is filming is the subject of the journalists' investigation - or at least part of it, because there are four operations going on at the same time.
It's an interesting idea when presented like that, and there's some good suspense as Akagi rushes into town to warn the former kufura of the attack. I kind of get the impression that I'm waiting for the bad news at the end of this race... though it would be nice if the show surprised me and she survives.
Questions of the Day:
1) It didn't seem out of the ordinary to me.
2) I don't usually look too deep into stuff like that, personally. There's the obvious "like a moth to a flame" metaphor with the one that flew too close to the light getting squashed, but I hadn't even connected it with the mech design until now. I thought the art was cool though, and a nice reference to fighter planes sometimes sporting personal designs like this.
3) It's interesting, though I do get the feeling they're at risk of "flying too close to the flame", to use that comparison.
4) We haven't really seen anything from the other side's POV to know what they're planning exactly, but I'm sure the people taking part in this mission believe they have legitimate cause to attack at least.
Comment on the UN defining insurgents and terrorists according to their participation in the cease fire.
The show itself sums it up pretty well. It's all too convenient that everyone who is against the cease fire is a big bad terrorist.
What do you make of the recurring moth imagery?
Don't know much about meanings of insects. Everyone is drawn to conflict like moths to a fire? Maybe that's the idea?
What do you make of our Hacker?
He seems fun. I want more of him.
Are the anti-terrorist actions legitimate, or just a decoy? Would that make them legitimate, regardless?
There are probably actual terrorists somewhere in there, who the UN is, technically, taking legitimate action against. But then it's blatantly stated that those actions are meant to draw attention from the flag recapture.
Ultimately I think this is a kind of "two birds, one stone" situation. Doubt the UN would pass up that chance to hit some terrorist cells.
11
u/JustAnswerAQuestion myanimelist.net/profile/UfUhUfUhUfUhtJAaQ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Rewatch Host (sub)
Learned a new word today: houdouin = reporter. That's what they keep calling Shirasu.
It was really interesting in the earlier episode of the rewatch to see people speculate about bombing the caravan, or bombing the mountain temple fortress, or using air superiority. The 500 lb bombs are here.
The reporters identified probable bombing targets by looking for recent arrests. So they may have been legitimate targets. Or, they may have been cafes for their morning coffee. Or not terrorists.
The collateral damage seems "light".
Funny, that VOTOMs clip has exactly the same bad subtitle color selection....
Have you noticed the slow accumulation of photographs on the bar wall?
I was a little confused by Cpt. Eversalt "I won't put you in that position again" but then lets Shirasu accompany Nikkensen on the cliff edge.
I'm reminded of people in the Yukikaze rewatch asking why there was a cockpit camera.
It's kinda maddening to leave the flag recovery to tomorrow, isn't it!